Martial arts and the undead

[meadicus]

I've just been flicking through the NPC section and had a thought. Somewhere on this site I found these zombie stats, I can't remember where so apologies to the author.

Zombie (Standard Animal NPC — 71 XP): Init II; Atk V; Def VI; Resilience VII; Damage Save: III; Skills: Athletics III, Notice I; SZ M; Spd 20 ft.; Qualities: Achilles heel (called shot or threat), clumsy, damage reduction 8, fearless (+20), fearsome, feat ( Horde Basics, Horde Mastery, Horde Supremacy, Night Training), feral, horde, inferior attributes (Dex 8, Cha 1), minion, natural attack (slam II), sluggish (-10 ft.), superior attributes (Str 12), swarm, uncoordinated, undead.

The re-classification as an animal has allowed for the swarm trait. Now when in a group they're doing their damage automatically, defense becomes irrelevant for the PC, and the more adjacent zombies the more damage. You'll probably want to add a bite attack, then add Krensky's 'Zombie Contagion' and your players will begin to cry

I can't imagine anyone wanting to stay anywhere near a zombie horde with that going on.

[afrodave]

PC #1 with a pistol or perferable a long arm can shoot the zombies and then runaway, take up a new position, then shot another one or two, then move to a new posistion... repeat

PC #2 is a martial artist, unarmed or melee specialist, and has decided to fight the horde. the first round goes well and he kicks or cuts off the head off one of the zombies. On the zombie's turn the PC is now surrounded by 8 zombies, all gain flanking bonuses to then and the PC has nowhere to run and becomes Zombie food.   But at least he didn't run out of ammo (and probably has chicken).

[Gentry]

It *is* worth noting, though, that with the right feats and whatnot the martial artist can conceivably take down five or six of the zombies at a time, and if his friends are competent the whole horde can be down to two or three zombies by the time they get to act.

But that's when Meadicus' point, the swarm quality, kicks on.  Being able to do damage without an attack check is the biggie here.  And as stated, coupled with the zombie contagion previously mentioned, it comes down to "you better kill them all before they can act, or somebody's getting bit, which means the martial artist may well be toast."

That's all kinds of reason to stay way way away. 

[Ezram]

Gee, these "martial artists" must have Int or Wis as a dump stat to be directly engaging a horde hand to hand 

[Toccata]

Gee, these "martial artists" must have Int or Wis as a dump stat to be directly engaging a horde hand to hand 

Depends how many levels of Tough the zombies in question have and how many attacks the Martial Artist has per turn, I suppose, but yeah, getting within reach of a horde with Horde Supremacy is very rarely a good idea.

A level 14 Explorer with a bomb vest might be ok with it, but otherwise it's a fairly self-destructive tendency, in my opinion.

[mouthymerc]

I've just been flicking through the NPC section and had a thought. Somewhere on this site I found these zombie stats, I can't remember where so apologies to the author.

Zombie (Standard Animal NPC — 71 XP): Init II; Atk V; Def VI; Resilience VII; Damage Save: III; Skills: Athletics III, Notice I; SZ M; Spd 20 ft.; Qualities: Achilles heel (called shot or threat), clumsy, damage reduction 8, fearless (+20), fearsome, feat ( Horde Basics, Horde Mastery, Horde Supremacy, Night Training), feral, horde, inferior attributes (Dex 8, Cha 1), minion, natural attack (slam II), sluggish (-10 ft.), superior attributes (Str 12), swarm, uncoordinated, undead.

The re-classification as an animal has allowed for the swarm trait. Now when in a group they're doing their damage automatically, defense becomes irrelevant for the PC, and the more adjacent zombies the more damage. You'll probably want to add a bite attack, then add Krensky's 'Zombie Contagion' and your players will begin to cry

I can't imagine anyone wanting to stay anywhere near a zombie horde with that going on.

Yeah, I actually reposted them in the Minion, Inc. thread just recently.  It was a new take on them after my original take.

[Ezram]

Gee, these "martial artists" must have Int or Wis as a dump stat to be directly engaging a horde hand to hand 

Depends how many levels of Tough the zombies in question have and how many attacks the Martial Artist has per turn, I suppose, but yeah, getting within reach of a horde with Horde Supremacy is very rarely a good idea.

A level 14 Explorer with a bomb vest might be ok with it, but otherwise it's a fairly self-destructive tendency, in my opinion.

What makes that combination special?

[Mister Andersen]

Check out the description of Life Line. It's pretty much how Kenobi survives order 66

[Ezram]

It seems to me that the issue of somewhat focused melee combatants does have a viable impact on the atmopshere of a horror campaign. So, instead of beefing up the zombies, it would be prudent to impress upon the players the importance and value of guns as some of you have mentioned.

[Morgenstern]

One would think ANY focused combatant would have an impact on traditional zombie encounters as portrayed in the movies since those traditional encounters are based chiefly on on the rabid INCOMPETENCE of the protagonists .

Its toxic. Deadly toxic. Don't put you hands on it. At the very least wear some gloves. Cripes, get a good leather jacket while you are at it- those are only people fingernails after all. These seem like the most basic concepts perpetually overlooked in zombie flicks.

Martial Artists get reach bonuses exactly so they aren't categorically nulified by an opponent such as those with swarm and injector qualities - so they can keep a little distance and still get to play. So if you have a focused combatant of that sort, he should chew up weenie zombies like combat oriented folks. If the opposition is tough/dangerous zombies, everone has to take them seriously, including the ranged fighters.

So I guess the question is what sort of story/scenario are you trying to set up? Are you looking to make 1 person 'teh suck' for the evening (cause really, you can create a scenario that does that to any character concept) or are you just startled that a fight-y character is good in fights? Because if you want folks to run, you need something that scares ALL of them, or 1-2 somebodies inevitably try to make a stand and the rest of the team falls into line to help make it happen however they can. No one EVER says "hey, I'm just gonna sit on my thumbs for 10 minutes while you gunmen play out this fight." Nobody. Nor should they.

[Ezram]

One would think ANY focused combatant would have an impact on traditional zombie encounters as portrayed in the movies since those traditional encounters are based chiefly on on the rabid INCOMPETENCE of the protagonists .

Its toxic. Deadly toxic. Don't put you hands on it. At the very least wear some gloves. Cripes, get a good leather jacket while you are at it- those are only people fingernails after all. These seem like the most basic concepts perpetually overlooked in zombie flicks.

Martial Artists get reach bonuses exactly so they aren't categorically nulified by an opponent such as those with swarm and injector qualities - so they can keep a little distance and still get to play. So if you have a focused combatant of that sort, he should chew up weenie zombies like combat oriented folks. If the opposition is tough/dangerous zombies, everone has to take them seriously, including the ranged fighters.

So I guess the question is what sort of story/scenario are you trying to set up? Are you looking to make 1 person 'teh suck' for the evening (cause really, you can create a scenario that does that to any character concept) or are you just startled that a fight-y character is good in fights? Because if you want folks to run, you need something that scares ALL of them, or 1-2 somebodies inevitably try to make a stand and the rest of the team falls into line to help make it happen however they can. No one EVER says "hey, I'm just gonna sit on my thumbs for 10 minutes while you gunmen play out this fight." Nobody. Nor should they.

There's always kicks 

Besides which, the way people get infected varies from writer to writer. It's true that in some representations, merely touching the undead is a one-way ticket to joining their ranks. However, in Dawn of the Dead 04, a character with a gash on his arm was in zombie blood infected water and managed to evade infection. He even went on to wrestle a good deal of them later on to no ill effect! 

In reference to the movies: the armor bit you mentioned is somewhat of a double-edged sword. On the one hand, some leather can protect you from getting chewed on with minimal sacrifice of speed. However, no matter how well armored you are, a mob of the undead are going to surround you and knock you down, making that suit nothing more than a fancy snack wrapping.

Perhaps things are balanced as they are now, but I can't help get queasy everytime I see that scene in Resident Evil where Alice bats the Cerberus out of the way.

[afrodave]

Guess the other point is not unarmed/melee versus ranged, but level.  Most Zombie flicks are with low level characters, that are not packed full of feats and class abilities. 

so yeah, a 20th level martial artist would probably be an unstoppable combat machine. even against the Umbrella corporation's premiere expeeriments.  but try taking a level 3 or 4 martial artist against them (even figuring threat levels being equal to the character level.)

[TheAuldGrump]

And of course you can always throw Tar Man zombies at them. (See Return of the Living Dead) nothing like some really sticky and gooey zombies to slow folks down.



Make the stickiness of the zombie dependent on the damage from the attack, and you will will see the best hand to hand specialists become the gummiest.

The Auld Grump, tar pits, industrial accidents, the Boston Molasses Disaster... (if anyone uses the phrase 'slow as cold molasses in January' molasses has been clocked at 35 miles an hour in that month.....)

[Ezram]

That hombre's got a good case of decay  .

Are stats for those zombies written up?

Guess the other point is not unarmed/melee versus ranged, but level.  Most Zombie flicks are with low level characters, that are not packed full of feats and class abilities. 

so yeah, a 20th level martial artist would probably be an unstoppable combat machine. even against the Umbrella corporation's premiere expeeriments.  but try taking a level 3 or 4 martial artist against them (even figuring threat levels being equal to the character level.)

In that case, it seems more like that representation had super high stats (above 15 for all), and some levels, but not entirely relying on experience.

[Crafty_Pat]

The Auld Grump, tar pits, industrial accidents, the Boston Molasses Disaster... (if anyone uses the phrase 'slow as cold molasses in January' molasses has been clocked at 35 miles an hour in that month.....)

Um, wow. I have never heard of this before. A wall of molasses 8-15 feet high moving with enough force to lift a train off the tracks? It's just...