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Author Topic: a bit dissapointed about the SP  (Read 9809 times)
Wolverine
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« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2008, 08:43:40 AM »

...we can support a 400-page hardcover book with very pro binding and full colour that costs $80 or so.

*spits tea over keyboard*

I'm sorry, did you say $80 for a roleplaying book? That works out to over $150 here in NZ (after exchange rate and shipping costs), and would definately not sell. Ever. As others have mentioned, wargaming is completely different to roleplaying when it comes to purchasing books. If I could buy the NZ$150 book by the chapter, it mightn't be so bad.

As for interior art, the full colour material does look good, but then so did a lot of the plain black-and-white material from the first edition. A skilled artist can do more with two colours (yes, neither black nor white are technically colours, but you get the idea) than a mediocre one can do with a full palete.
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« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2008, 10:17:38 AM »

A perfect example of a stellar and compelling black and white book is the Midnight Campaign Core Rulebook from Fantasy Flight Games (although they do splurge on a few colour plates at the beginning of the book).
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« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2008, 10:25:36 AM »

First off, lemme say... finally got WoF and a SP for my players.  (Took a little FLGS hunting.. but I figure, if the store goes off the 'beaten path' and buys Spycraft, I can go out of my way to find the store that did.)

Binding is great.  No issue there.  As for Color vs. Black and White?  Honestly, I like the Black and White.  It gives it a "feel".. like you're flipping through something that you shouldn't be...  might be just me.  But I'm used to reading Tech. mans. and briefings that are black and white.

All around, damn good job in the opinion of one happy little GC.
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Krensky
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« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2008, 10:31:17 AM »

* Snicker.

Ok... now I really want a Printer Friendly version just so I can get it glue bound in tan cardstock.
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« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2008, 12:10:42 PM »

...we can support a 400-page hardcover book with very pro binding and full colour that costs $80 or so.

*spits tea over keyboard*

I'm sorry, did you say $80 for a roleplaying book? That works out to over $150 here in NZ (after exchange rate and shipping costs), and would definately not sell. Ever. As others have mentioned, wargaming is completely different to roleplaying when it comes to purchasing books. If I could buy the NZ$150 book by the chapter, it mightn't be so bad.

As for interior art, the full colour material does look good, but then so did a lot of the plain black-and-white material from the first edition. A skilled artist can do more with two colours (yes, neither black nor white are technically colours, but you get the idea) than a mediocre one can do with a full palete.

The value you get is astronomical, and only limited by your imagination. I'm not saying the price should be anything, but at that point, if the binding is superb, well within the acceptable range.

And look, you've just forced yourself to spend $15-40 on a new keyboard all due to your disbelief!  Undecided
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Crafty_Alex
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« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2008, 12:40:51 PM »

Cheers, Alex, for participating in this thread.

Gladly. That's what we tend to do around here Smiley

Quote
If Crafty isn't going to make any changes to the Mongoose printing system, I'll be buying your stuff in PDF format regardless. I just don't trust what I see on the shelf from Mongoose these days to last more than a few weeks of regular play without the binding falling apart.

Suffice to say, as Mongoose is our printer, we can't really "make any changes" to thier process - that's out of our auspices. However, part of the reason SP and WOF were delayed was because we did make a number of requests, mainly about the binding, that took a few months to resolve. If you take the Pepsi Challenge with our print books (at least the ones I've seen) and other Flaming Cobra products, you'll see our books have had no cover warpage, because of heavier stock; no spine breakage; and excepting Nez, one deaths in the field. Compared to the books like Nephilim and apparenlty some copies of Cthulhutech (though mine is great), it is a damn sturdy book. Mongoose is definately improving their printing processes, as is evidenced with their more recent products like Conan 2e. Rest assured, we will continue to vet all our print books in the same manner as they continue to work out the kinks - the utility and durability for customers is our first concern.

BUT! I totally respect your decision if you choose to go the PDF route - for us, it's basically the same as selling a print book, and there are certainly no binding issues Wink

Thanks for your continued support, Portal - this has been an interesting discussion.
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« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2008, 12:59:38 PM »

...we can support a 400-page hardcover book with very pro binding and full colour that costs $80 or so.

*spits tea over keyboard*

I'm sorry, did you say $80 for a roleplaying book? That works out to over $150 here in NZ (after exchange rate and shipping costs), and would definately not sell. Ever. As others have mentioned, wargaming is completely different to roleplaying when it comes to purchasing books. If I could buy the NZ$150 book by the chapter, it mightn't be so bad.

As for interior art, the full colour material does look good, but then so did a lot of the plain black-and-white material from the first edition. A skilled artist can do more with two colours (yes, neither black nor white are technically colours, but you get the idea) than a mediocre one can do with a full palete.

The value you get is astronomical, and only limited by your imagination. I'm not saying the price should be anything, but at that point, if the binding is superb, well within the acceptable range.

And look, you've just forced yourself to spend $15-40 on a new keyboard all due to your disbelief!  Undecided

$80 US is about $100 NZ, and shipping and import duties could easily amount to the $40 US to bring the cost to $150 NZ. I'm sure Wolverine has a better grasp of the import duties and shipping costs from the UK or the US and the local NZ gamming market then anyone else here (assuming he's the only kiwi).

As for the market for a $80-90 full color version of SC2.0 here in the US I, personally, believe that Crafty and Mongoose have a much better grasp on the market and the economics then any of us do. So let's give it a rest. If they say the full color wasn't feasible for anything other then a special edition they're probably right.

As an aside, the two full color books for GURPS4 come to a total of 576 pages and cost $74.90 together or about $0.130 a page. SJG is a much more established company with a larger business presence and a larger audience counting all it's lines, long term relations with printing companies and the credit and market to order far larger runs then Crafty does. They couldn't get the price of their flagship game under $60. WotC could do the 960 pages of D&D 3.5 at $119.85, or about $0.125 a page. SC2.0 costs $49.95 for 500 pages which comes to $0.100 a page. Assuming they could get the same price as SJG got, which I highly doubt, the book would be $65 in full-color glossy. SJG though can probably run smaller margins and get higher volume discounts then Crafty can, and they almost certainly have larger bank accounts and credit lines. Most printers want most of the money up front and the rest on delivery. Since Flaming Cobra at mongoose is a boutique printer specialized in small runs Mongoose probably was willing to give the guys much nicer terms then a normal printer would if only because they want to build the imprint and make some money when they're not printing their own books.
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« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2008, 01:05:05 PM »

If we had a table, two chairs, and a room with a locked door, this is what we'd call a Brainwashing conflict  Wink.
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« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2008, 01:52:55 PM »

What a cute little ad hominem.
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« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2008, 02:08:37 PM »

If we had a table, two chairs, and a room with a locked door, this is what we'd call a Brainwashing conflict  Wink.

I think Krensky's analysis was perfectly well-reasoned, in fact. Insinuating that was simply fanboyism is not cricket.
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« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2008, 02:10:41 PM »

The reasoning for why the book is black and white is understandable. No doubt about it.

However, seeing everyone laude it for being that way and jumping whoever likes or wanted color art is a bit much. Not that I don't like pencil art, mind you, but this is supposed to be professionally laid out as well as typed out.
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« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2008, 02:15:06 PM »

I wasn't lauding it for being in black and white. I wish it was in color (assuming we still get the table layouts) and I might well buy the theoretical Deluxe edition.

We, however, have a black and white version which is just as good and does have advantages over color, just as color has over black and white.
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« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2008, 02:20:01 PM »

Wow, when is that coming out?
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« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2008, 02:23:45 PM »

However, seeing everyone laude it for being that way and jumping whoever likes or wanted color art is a bit much. Not that I don't like pencil art, mind you, but this is supposed to be professionally laid out as well as typed out.

Are you referring to this thread as a whole?

As for me, I'm just saying "dude, accept reality", and most other folks seem to be saying the same. Nobody's blasting anyone for liking color. (If I ran into a first printing in a hobby shop, I'd probably snag it!)

Aside from which, it sounds like Portal has pretty much concluded that PDF is the solution for him; I don't see any need for white knighting.
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TheTSKoala
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« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2008, 02:27:23 PM »

White Knighting?  Tap two white mana for a 1/1 with First Strike?!  (I could be definately wrong about that.. but I think that's what White Knight was in MTG...)
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