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Author Topic: a bit dissapointed about the SP  (Read 9879 times)
Ezram
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« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2008, 10:29:50 AM »

Agreed. Bright, vivid illustrations definitely help to reel prospective players in. That's partially why the Eberron Campaign Setting intrigued me.
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« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2008, 10:47:54 AM »

Sorry, guys, but the best games both play and look great. One need not compromise one for the other.

Unless, of course, that means pricing yourself completely out of the market.  Heaven forbid they actually try to keep themselves within a reasonable range.  This isn't some big company.  The first printing was a fluke.  The reality is that there was no way to do the same thing without pricing themselves out of the market.  Would have preferred they do that?
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« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2008, 10:48:35 AM »

From what I can tell from DriveThruRPG, Crafty's PDFs are in colour at least. Is this confirmed for all of their PDF releases?

All the physical books have a full colour .pdf.

All .pdf-only products come in both full colour and no-frills printer friendly versions.

Quote
I guess I could go the PDF route and then take the material to a local printer to have it spiral-bound in colour.

Isn't that going to be more expensive than the book (not even factoring in the cost of the .pdf to begin with)?
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« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2008, 11:16:32 AM »

Sorry, guys, but the best games both play and look great. One need not compromise one for the other.

Obviously, this is incorrect. As Pat has plainly stated, doing this again would have had an unrealistically high cost. There is a very plain economic need to compromise on for the other.
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« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2008, 11:20:42 AM »

From what I can tell from DriveThruRPG, Crafty's PDFs are in colour at least. Is this confirmed for all of their PDF releases?

As far as I know, none of the classic releases are color (but they weren't originally).

Spellbound Vol I also only has a monochrome cover and no interior art. Some of the other smaller releases have no interior art.

The World on Fire PDF is color, and it looks really snazzy in color. I printed out chapter 4 for my rules binder. (I wince to think how much of my ink went into printing those green tables, though.)
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« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2008, 01:17:43 PM »

If the fantasy gamer market can support hobbies such as miniatures gaming which cost hundreds of dollars to play, we can support a 400-page hardcover book with very pro binding and full colour that costs $80 or so. Feel free to disagree with me if you wish, but I'd rather pay for the best.

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Unless, of course, that means pricing yourself completely out of the market.  Heaven forbid they actually try to keep themselves within a reasonable range.  This isn't some big company.  The first printing was a fluke.

Black Industries is about to release a 400 page full-colour hardcover for the WH40K RPG "Dark Heresy" at $65 U.S. If they can do it, why can't Crafty?

BTW - Thanks to everyone who shared their knowledge of Crafty's PDF releases. It looks like I will need to persue this route if I want colour versions of their books. With the Mongoose book binding problems still seeming unresolved, this might be the best route to take, regardless.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2008, 01:22:32 PM by Portal » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2008, 01:35:14 PM »

True, miniatures games are expensive, but they tend to spread out the purchases over time, which you can't do with just one book.
Gamers spend an average of around $40 per month on gaming.  (I think I got that stat from Ken Hite's blog, don't remember exactly how timely it is)

And yes, things like Ptolus have done well, but I've never seen a copy of Ptolus in a FLGS.

Also Dark Heresy has the huge advantage of catering to the massive WH40K fan base.
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« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2008, 01:44:11 PM »

If the fantasy gamer market can support hobbies such as miniatures gaming which cost hundreds of dollars to play, we can support a 400-page hardcover book with very pro binding and full colour that costs $80 or so. Feel free to disagree with me if you wish, but I'd rather pay for the best.

That's nice that you can afford it.  Unfortunately, it's not the same for many people out there.  There is a reason that many books are aimed at lower price margins.  Price it too high and you are going to put yourself beyond the means of your market.  If people do not buy your book, then you will not stay in business.  Seems pretty simple to me, but I'm just a layman.

And, as far as I can tell, if the only thing that changed was the colour, it is a small price to pay for the quality of the book.  With all the clarifications, errata and reorganizing that went into it, the second printing sounds great.  Complaining about lack of colour reminds me of the complaints about the artwork used in it when the first printing came out.  It seems rather small in comparison to what you get.

Black Industries is about to release a 400 page full-colour hardcover for the WH40K RPG "Dark Heresy" at $65 U.S. If they can do it, why can't Crafty?

So what?  Last time I checked, Black Industries and Crafty Games are two different entities.  Who is to say what resources that Black Industries have behind them?  Certainly not me.  I daresay that those resources are not the same, though.
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Ezram
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« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2008, 02:07:07 PM »

Uh oh, it's the black and white mafia...
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« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2008, 02:15:21 PM »

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The best games play great period. Fancy artwork and spiffy layout are cool and all, but a good game is just as good written up using noting but plain test and ASCII tables.

Couldn't disagree more, and I've been RPGing since the '80s. Sure, bad games are obviously never saved by good graphics, but excellent designs are most definitely dragged down by bad aesthetics, especially for RPGs. Atmosphere is essential for the tabletop roleplaying game and graphics are among the leading contributors to that.

I have never seen a good game suffer for bad art. I honestly can't think of a single really good game that suffered from bad or even inconsistent art. Risk and Diplomacy have little or no art and aren't diminished it. A $10 drugstore chess set is just as engaging as a $1500 one. Risk and Diplomacy have no art to speak of and are timeless games. Blue Planet v2 is very art light. The original Traveler pamphlets are still excellent reads and are largely art free.

SP is probably a better book for being in black and white. It's lighter, sturdier, easier to read, and cheaper. If you insist on color buy the PDF and find somewhere you can steal several hours with a color laser printer. Copy shop printing, last I check, will run you something like $300.

As for the Dark Heresy book, it's $15 more expensive and 100 pages shorter then SP. And Ptolus is $120 and is a camapign seting. SP is a system book. It could be nothing but plain text, tables and diagrams and be just as effective as telling you whjat the rules and principles of the game are.
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« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2008, 03:34:18 PM »

The most important quality I think for a game book is that it is well laid out and thus easy to read, monochrome helps here, especially with the new tables which are much easier to read than the old sea of green. Good art (of which colour can be a part) definitely makes a book more enjoyable to read, so is important.

But to be honest when it comes to the gaming table I know a session has gone well if I haven't had to get the book out. Not because I know the rules well (I never do as I have a terrible memory) but because the game is well designed to be intuitive. Spycraft does this well in my humble opinion, and the colour spectrum of the printed book makes no difference to this.
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« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2008, 03:44:19 PM »

If the fantasy gamer market can support hobbies such as miniatures gaming which cost hundreds of dollars to play, we can support a 400-page hardcover book with very pro binding and full colour that costs $80 or so. Feel free to disagree with me if you wish, but I'd rather pay for the best.

I would call you the exception, rather than the rule Smiley It'd be great if we could count on that level of support from the community, but frankly, the RPG industry doesn't prove that through sales. If you look at the number people grousing about the average book cost going from $35 to $40 - a price game companies started using over 10 years ago - it doesn't scream viable to go double that.

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Black Industries is about to release a 400 page full-colour hardcover for the WH40K RPG "Dark Heresy" at $65 U.S. If they can do it, why can't Crafty?

Namely, because we're not selling a Warhammer 40k licensed RPG - the biggest wargame in the world - and a game that has been asked for since Rogue Trader hit the stands 18 years ago Smiley Spycraft is good, but not NEARLY that popular.

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BTW - Thanks to everyone who shared their knowledge of Crafty's PDF releases. It looks like I will need to persue this route if I want colour versions of their books. With the Mongoose book binding problems still seeming unresolved, this might be the best route to take, regardless.

Nez is the first person I have heard of having any binding problems. As for color versions, we have discussed the possibility of "prestige" color versions of certain products at some point for niche customers who want the Cadillac book, such as yourself. At this time, though, such plans are simply talk, and far FAR away from even being decided upon.
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Alex Flagg
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« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2008, 03:54:08 PM »

Cheers, Alex, for participating in this thread.

You can add me as a "second" person commenting about the book binding. While I'm not a customer and can't comment in great detail about a particular individual book, the copy I saw at my local shop looked pretty rough in the binding department to me. It appeared to be the same old glue problem that Mongoose's printer has built some "infamy" around. If Crafty isn't going to make any changes to the Mongoose printing system, I'll be buying your stuff in PDF format regardless. I just don't trust what I see on the shelf from Mongoose these days to last more than a few weeks of regular play without the binding falling apart.
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« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2008, 03:56:16 PM »

Crafty may have made an announcement back in October that the SP would be in B&W, but it hasn't been attached to the official product description on this Web site. I'm really glad now I didn't pre-order it.

From what I can tell from DriveThruRPG, Crafty's PDFs are in colour at least. Is this confirmed for all of their PDF releases?

I guess I could go the PDF route and then take the material to a local printer to have it spiral-bound in colour.

Full colour is economically impossible for Crafty to do for their print products at this time AFAIK. All the Pdf's created after 2.0 The Pdf's are full colour however, so they may be your best option if the issue is a deal-breaker for you.

eta: beaten to the punch by Alex as I was typing. Typical of this baord Cheesy
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« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2008, 09:18:58 PM »

I am still hoping for a 'Deluxe Edition' in color - a pre-order or POD book for the really silly people true fans.

The Auld Grump, one of the really silly true fans....
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