Author Topic: Talking about Spellbound/FC magic in general.  (Read 3492 times)

Crafty_Pat

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Re: Talking about Spellbound/FC magic in general.
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2017, 07:09:13 PM »
Our argument is and has always been that many "fundamental parts of [fantasy] magic" are in fact broken as all hell. They so dramatically limit the stories you can tell, the settings in which you can adventure, and the characters you can build that they really need to be reined in. I expect this approach won't change for Fantasy Craft, though there are perhaps a few cases in which the game balance could be achieved differently. I'm reading, and will continue to consider leading up to my final run.
Patrick Kapera
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Morgenstern

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Re: Talking about Spellbound/FC magic in general.
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2017, 10:53:52 PM »
I'm reading through the spells preview and Detect Undead is definitely a spell that can be modified: Detect Constructs (Artifice), Detect Plants and Animals (Nature), Detect Elementals (Creation), Detect Outsiders (Calling), Detect Horror (Secrets*).

*Because Man was not meant to know them.  :P

  Dude! That last one's excellent. Take a cool point. A shiny one, not just one of the spares from the bottom of the sock drawer.

  ...Damn, making that connection is inspiring.
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SilvercatMoonpaw

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Re: Talking about Spellbound/FC magic in general.
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2017, 07:18:22 AM »
Our argument is and has always been that many "fundamental parts of [fantasy] magic" are in fact broken as all hell. They so dramatically limit the stories you can tell, the settings in which you can adventure, and the characters you can build that they really need to be reined in.
I can see your logic and agree with it most times.  However I think it's possible to take thinks too far the other way.  This isn't necessarily a problem of Polymorph itself (being a "anything goes" spell") but a question of if there shouldn't be some kinds of lesser or more-limited spells that allow for some kinds of fantasy-inspired transformations.

The simplest alt is to have a version of Disguise Self (perhaps a Spell Level 2 "Disguise Self II") that bypasses Species and Size restrictions on Disguise (the same way the Fire Brave ability does).  (Or just changes the "Impossible" line to "-20", I don't know.)  Spellcasters can change into all the forms them want, but it doesn't change their statistics at all.

Then have some minor spells like Wild Side that grant other bonuses: "Form of the Stalker" would grant a four-footed animal appearance, improved sense (smell), a +5 gear bonus on Survival checks made to follow tracks by scent, and maybe darkvision I.  Just simple, flavorful spells that don't grant powerful bonuses but let players have their characters change into animals.

I expect this approach won't change for Fantasy Craft, though there are perhaps a few cases in which the game balance could be achieved differently. I'm reading, and will continue to consider leading up to my final run.
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SilvercatMoonpaw

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Re: Talking about Spellbound/FC magic in general.
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2017, 08:29:36 AM »
I'm reading through the spells preview and Detect Undead is definitely a spell that can be modified: Detect Constructs (Artifice), Detect Plants and Animals (Nature), Detect Elementals (Creation), Detect Outsiders (Calling), Detect Horror (Secrets*).

*Because Man was not meant to know them.  :P

  Dude! That last one's excellent. Take a cool point. A shiny one, not just one of the spares from the bottom of the sock drawer.

  ...Damn, making that connection is inspiring.
Thanks.  I have my moments.

TheOpSecTreeFloof

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Re: Talking about Spellbound/FC magic in general.
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2017, 09:09:07 AM »
This is whimsical, but I'm hoping for an NPC of a FantasyCraft version of the Crafty Pat's mental image of himself as he crafted this project.  Because that NPC will be my Librarian / Book Store / Crazed Plot NPC for all of eternity no matter what system.

::snort::

Maybe as an excerpt. After the project is done. Not immediately after.   :D

If we get a Crafty Alex NPC to go with it...



Crafty Statler and Wardof for life!

You folks are awesome.

I mean.. c'mon.  Who doesn't want something like "Alistair and Patariki", the Russian and Maori tag team of NPC knowledge and Plot devices!  (Alex has a lot more plays on name than Patrick does.  Sorry Pat!  It was either that, or Patricio! lol)

Seriously people.. just think.. Crafty Pat doing a Haka with a set of Crafty books... while Craft Alex wears a Ushanka with full fur long coat offering you great deals at very reasonable prices as his hand shows you the butt of the AK-47 under that fur long coat.  ;)

TKDB

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Re: Talking about Spellbound/FC magic in general.
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2017, 10:29:15 AM »
The simplest alt is to have a version of Disguise Self (perhaps a Spell Level 2 "Disguise Self II") that bypasses Species and Size restrictions on Disguise (the same way the Fire Brave ability does).
I'd always assumed that was how the regular Disguise Self worked to begin with. It simply grants a Disguise result equal to your Spellcasting result -- and since it's a Spellcasting check rather than Disguise, the Disguise check modifiers are irrelevant.

SilvercatMoonpaw

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Re: Talking about Spellbound/FC magic in general.
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2017, 11:12:53 AM »
The simplest alt is to have a version of Disguise Self (perhaps a Spell Level 2 "Disguise Self II") that bypasses Species and Size restrictions on Disguise (the same way the Fire Brave ability does).
I'd always assumed that was how the regular Disguise Self worked to begin with. It simply grants a Disguise result equal to your Spellcasting result -- and since it's a Spellcasting check rather than Disguise, the Disguise check modifiers are irrelevant.
Might be one of those "GM decides" moments that occurs in the rules.

Bill Whitmore

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Re: Talking about Spellbound/FC magic in general.
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2017, 12:46:32 PM »
They so dramatically limit the stories you can tell, the settings in which you can adventure, and the characters you can build that they really need to be reined in.

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TheVastator

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Re: Talking about Spellbound/FC magic in general.
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2017, 02:47:01 PM »
Our argument is and has always been that many "fundamental parts of [fantasy] magic" are in fact broken as all hell. They so dramatically limit the stories you can tell, the settings in which you can adventure, and the characters you can build that they really need to be reined in. I expect this approach won't change for Fantasy Craft, though there are perhaps a few cases in which the game balance could be achieved differently. I'm reading, and will continue to consider leading up to my final run.

That's so true, solving a murder mystery gets incredibly easy (and boring) with the right magical spells... or crossing a desert ("no prob, I got create water!") and the like.

Desertpuma

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Re: Talking about Spellbound/FC magic in general.
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2017, 03:14:31 PM »
Our argument is and has always been that many "fundamental parts of [fantasy] magic" are in fact broken as all hell. They so dramatically limit the stories you can tell, the settings in which you can adventure, and the characters you can build that they really need to be reined in. I expect this approach won't change for Fantasy Craft, though there are perhaps a few cases in which the game balance could be achieved differently. I'm reading, and will continue to consider leading up to my final run.

That's so true, solving a murder mystery gets incredibly easy (and boring) with the right magical spells... or crossing a desert ("no prob, I got create water!") and the like.

Agreed


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SilvercatMoonpaw

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Re: Talking about Spellbound/FC magic in general.
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2017, 03:49:08 PM »
....solving a murder mystery gets incredibly easy (and boring) with the right magical spells... or crossing a desert ("no prob, I got create water!") and the like.
At least part of that is because there's a disconnect between reading or watching a cool power be used and then forgetting those stories are carefully choreographed so as to make the power useless when it needs to be useless.  (Or, you know, the writers forget it's there.)  Players forget that, then want to know why they either can't spam their best stuff or where all the challenge's gone.*

* Or so I've heard: I've had very good experiences that mean I've not run across this particular kind of player myself.

SilvercatMoonpaw

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Re: Talking about Spellbound/FC magic in general.
« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2017, 03:54:14 PM »
Our argument is and has always been that many "fundamental parts of [fantasy] magic" are in fact broken as all hell.
We do tend to forget that at its origin (i.e. myth and legend) magic was the province of high-powered characters who used it to solve high-powered problems.  It's interesting to note how over time there's been a kind of "character power-creep".  I kind of wonder if it coincides with any kinds of equality social movements: the old stuff was based off of having elites and the top, and the new stuff is about giving the cool stuff the elites used to have to everyone without considering what that does.

Crafty_Pat

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Re: Talking about Spellbound/FC magic in general.
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2017, 02:10:20 AM »
Our argument is and has always been that many "fundamental parts of [fantasy] magic" are in fact broken as all hell.
We do tend to forget that at its origin (i.e. myth and legend) magic was the province of high-powered characters who used it to solve high-powered problems.  It's interesting to note how over time there's been a kind of "character power-creep".  I kind of wonder if it coincides with any kinds of equality social movements: the old stuff was based off of having elites and the top, and the new stuff is about giving the cool stuff the elites used to have to everyone without considering what that does.

If this were an effects-based magic system and / or we were starting over from scratch, I would be inclined to define our version of cantrips / menial magic and then our version of GOD KING POWER, and then build the middle grades to suit. Unfortunately, this project adapt's TOG's magic system, and there are certain sacred cows and expectations that come along with that system that, to be honest, sort of shit in your Cheerios a bit.

We've done all we can to be faithful to Fantasy Craft's ideas of game balance while also (trying to) offer (most of) what TOG does with spells. Frankly, the closer we get to TOG's versatility and power scales, the less I find Fantasy Craft playable. In the end, I suspect we're all going to be a little unhappy with the results, which is the essence of compromise, really.
Patrick Kapera
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Morgenstern

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Re: Talking about Spellbound/FC magic in general.
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2017, 04:54:36 AM »
  Cutting off that versatility at the knees is kind of what got Spellbound started. There was no Mage in the original Spellbound environment. It postulated that having 1/8 the breadth of D&D's wizards was simultaneously more fair and more badass. There needed to be a little juggling to distribute the various flavors into thematically interesting and desirable-in-play groupings, but that aspect of Spellbound I've always been immensely proud of. Even the last minute discipline shuffles between SC2.0 and Mastercraft have only served to strength that basic proposal: Specialist casters are better for the game and for the settings that allow magic than the fluffy limitless horizons of Wizards. With most famous 'wizards' from stories still fitting neatly into one of Spellbound's smaller, more tightly thematic boxes.

  If some of the individual spells are about an 1/8th as far reaching as their TOG counterparts... that's totally in keeping with the first principles of the effort. :)
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SilvercatMoonpaw

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Re: Talking about Spellbound/FC magic in general.
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2017, 05:39:46 AM »
We've done all we can to be faithful to Fantasy Craft's ideas of game balance while also (trying to) offer (most of) what TOG does with spells.
I really don't know why: I highly doubt anyone who comes over to Fantasy Craft from D&D just because it matches the spells is going to really enjoy the game.  The differences are what makes FC great: kill as many sacred cows as you can and feast mightily upon their roasted flesh.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 03:23:54 PM by SilvercatMoonpaw »