Contacts question

[Psion]

Okay, I know we batted about the contact rules a bit on the old boards... but they are gone now.

Now I am running the LSpy PbP and it has already come up.

My question is this: can you attempt a Networking/Contact check more than once a scene/intel phase? My reading is that the retry entry and an earlier paragraph suggests you can only attempt one contact roll per contact per phase.

But one of the players (our own Mr. Andersen) contends that this only applies to failed rolls. I can't find any text that contradicts him, but it seems to me if that's the intention, it makes contacts too strong and makes it so there is no real reason to ever split your contact levels between two contacts.

[Antilles]

With failure, the contact either never receives word that you need him, or refuses to respond. He is unavailable for the duration of the current scene.

It would seem you are correct, if he fails a networking check, the entire contact is unavailable.

[Gentry]

The Retry rules only apply to failed checks.  That's clear on page 102.  It would seem that as long as you continue to succeed at Networking checks, you can continue to make them (until each consultant or specialist has been used once, upon which time that contact can't help you further in that mission). 

I believe Andersen's playing a Fixer, right?  If that's so, then be aware that the Fixer exists to call contacts.  Contacts may *appear* too strong in the hands of a Fixer (since the class abilities make contact use pretty much automatic), but they're really not.

[Psion]

With failure, the contact either never receives word that you need him, or refuses to respond. He is unavailable for the duration of the current scene.

It would seem you are correct, if he fails a networking check, the entire contact is unavailable.

That's with failure. The contention is that this doesn't have the same explicit guideline if you are successful, so there is no limit.

[Morgenstern]

Lets get all the pieces together before talking through them.

Retry: This entry indicates whether the skill check may be retried when failed, and if so, describes the circumstances and modifiers of each subsequent check. Unless stated otherwise, you may not retry a skill check until the time required for the previous check has expired. Also, many skill checks become more difficult after you fail. Many skill checks are impossible after a critical failure.

With failure, the contact either never receives word that you
need him, or refuses to respond. He is unavailable for the duration of the current scene.
Retry: Yes, but only once per scene.
Error: The contact is dodging you. Your DCs with all checks made to contact him during the current mission increase by 5. Further, your error ranges with all checks made to contact him during the current mission increase by 1. This effect is cumulative.
Critical Failure: The contact is unavailable for the duration of the current mission.

As is often the case, the real question is do you have enough time? During a scene, you can try to get in touch with a contact, taking the time listed in table 2.35. If the check succeeds you can access one of the contact's consultants or specialists AND may make additional Networking/Contact checks to reach that contact for the purpose of calling out any one of his other consultants or specialists. If any Networking/Contact check fails, you may immediately try again exactly once, eating up that time again. If that fails, that contact is done for the scene, meaning you lose acess to all the consultants and specialists they provide until the following scene. Each time you call on a contact you also risk an error, which makes them harder to reach that scene if you still have a chance to re-try, and also makes them harder to reach for the rest of the mission. An actual critical failure shuts the contact down for the rest of the mission (no retry).

[Psion]

As is often the case, the real question is do you have enough time? During a scene, you can try to get in touch with a contact, taking the time listed in table 2.35. If the check succeeds you can access one of the contact's consultants or specialists AND may make additional Networking/Contact checks to reach that contact for the purpose of calling out any one of his other consultants or specialists. If any Networking/Contact check fails, you may immediately try again exactly once, eating up that time again. If that fails, that contact is done for the scene, meaning you lose acess to all the consultants and specialists they provide until the following scene. Each time you call on a contact you also risk an error, which makes them harder to reach that scene if you still have a chance to re-try, and also makes them harder to reach for the rest of the mission. An actual critical failure shuts the contact down for the rest of the mission (no retry).

Alright... that makes a fixer with a contact style feat *very* potent, as once they have a high grade contact, they automatically succeed (due to The Hookup ability) and the feat's reduction of error range to zero means they never risk error (or critical failure.) At that point can pretty much can access class abilities much higher than their levels with no real chance of failure. And 1 minute to summon is pretty safe in most cases.

I have one monkey wrench in my arsenal to deal with this if I really felt the character was going to be a problem, but don't feel I should have to resort to it...

[Morgenstern]

Yes. They spent skill points and feats to gain once per mission abilities of very short duration. It's a valid strategy.

I'll try to get the contacts preview re-posted, because it has guidance on combining contacts from different sources that I think tends to get overlooked. It's not as easy to make a partner as some people think. You can use the grades provided by Networking to create new contacts or advance other contacts you already have, but you can't combine separate contacts offered by feats or origins. For example, the 2 contacts that are offered by being a journalist cannot be combined to start out as a single associate grade contact. Further, using the Networking skill to advance those contacts is slitting your own throat in the long run, because once they advance to Partner, any additional improvments to those contacts because of you gaining career levels would be lost - the free advancement is specific to that contact.

[Antilles]

And 1 minute to summon is pretty safe in most cases.

But he still have to wait 1d6 hours for the contact to show up/give him the benefit, so by setting a deadline on the intel phase or scenes, you could still limit the effectiveness of contacts.

[Morgenstern]

But he still have to wait 1d6 hours for the contact to show up/give him the benefit, so by setting a deadline on the intel phase or scenes, you could still limit the effectiveness of contacts.

Correct. The contact still needs time to 'get his ducks in a row' and do his own dealings/preparation with the consultant or specialists being sought out. Those 1d6 hours are sequential.

Contact-based characters have some really potent options, but they aren't terrifically flexible (their pool of contacts is well know before the missions outset), require a lot of forward thinking (do we have time for me to bring out the big guns?), logistical planning (do I bring out the big guns this scene or save it for later), and the risk some horrific Reputation/Net Worth penalties if they play too fast and loose (those were some expensive flower arrangements at the funeral...).

Fixers are contact-based characters that are giving up having their own abilities in order to rely on the contact system. They are very good at it, taking some o the "he might not show up"  worry out of it that other classes suffer, but then again soldiers don't ussually wory their fight on ability is just gonna switch off (outside of their weapon breaking, maybe).

[Psion]

It's not as easy to make a partner as some people think. You can use the grades provided by Networking to create new contacts or advance other contacts you already have, but you can't combine separate contacts offered by feats or origins. For example, the 2 contacts that are offered by being a journalist cannot be combined to start out as a single associate grade contact.

Sure... but it's still pretty easy. Pick up an associate grade contact from a feat or origin, add in two contact grades from having 4 ranks in networking, and voila! Partner grade contact.

Further, using the Networking skill to advance those contacts is slitting your own throat in the long run, because once they advance to Partner, any additional improvments to those contacts because of you gaining career levels would be lost - the free advancement is specific to that contact.

Heh... I thought about that. But that strikes me as being akin to the AD&D 1e/2e style now-versus-later balancing that came with limiting demi-humans with level limits (which became a non-issue if you never played the character at that level.) I really don't like that.

Fixers are contact-based characters that are giving up having their own abilities in order to rely on the contact system. They are very good at it, taking some o the "he might not show up"  worry out of it that other classes suffer, but then again soldiers don't ussually wory their fight on ability is just gonna switch off (outside of their weapon breaking, maybe).

Again, if you have a "* contacts style feat" and The Hookup, there is no chance of failure. If the lower limit of the error range on the * contacts feat was 1 instead of zero, I wouldn't see a problem with it.

[Mister Andersen]

It's no different from other class abilities that give you a 0 error range.

The bit about the journalist is irritating, and actually makes them far less attractive options for anyone using contacts

[Morgenstern]

The bit about the journalist is irritating, and actually makes them far less attractive options for anyone using contacts

Um, suck it up? It's a 1 point Origin benefit that gives the equivalent of -4- focuses over time. It's a bargain.

[Mister Andersen]

Oh I'm not saying it's a bad package, but I think most people's character concepts with those origins have seen them using them to buff existing contacts

[Morgenstern]

Shrewd and Journalist do exactly what they are supposed to - give you breadth, not depth. When you screw up calling in a contact, you have a second or even a third to fall back on. That they don't indulge that most common of player drives to achieve 100% reliability isn't a bug, its a very deliberate feature.

[Morgenstern]

Sure... but it's still pretty easy. Pick up an associate grade contact from a feat or origin, add in two contact grades from having 4 ranks in networking, and voila! Partner grade contact.

Character spent 2 feats and 4 skill points to set up 4 once per mission effects. It seems like a dent balance inlight of what else you could do with 2 feats and 4 skill points. plus, while it's not exactly a dead end, 2 more feats and 4 skill points only gets you another Confederate grade guy.

Further, using the Networking skill to advance those contacts is slitting your own throat in the long run, because once they advance to Partner, any additional improvments to those contacts because of you gaining career levels would be lost - the free advancement is specific to that contact.

Heh... I thought about that. But that strikes me as being akin to the AD&D 1e/2e style now-versus-later balancing that came with limiting demi-humans with level limits (which became a non-issue if you never played the character at that level.) I really don't like that.

I see it more as a function of campaign length. Do player believe the long run will even matter? I don't object to players focusing on the now in a game that won't have a later. My point was only that if you do so, you write off some later oportunities.

Again, if you have a "* contacts style feat" and The Hookup, there is no chance of failure. If the lower limit of the error range on the * contacts feat was 1 instead of zero, I wouldn't see a problem with it.

Since whatever the consultant or specialist is doing for you can still fail, I don't immediately see the need for a 1 in 20 chance of screwing up before you even start. If anything, I'm a little surprised the Contacts feats haven't gotten more attention than theyhave since that are supposed ot be fairly desirable, providing solutions to challenges that embed the character in the world through ties to other people.

My hope is that if it's clear most contact-centric characters will have many contacts, some fully loaded, others not, then the notion of 1 "perfect" contact-per-second-teir-feat just means a small part of their arsenal is reliabe. If you are breaking a mission with one perfect contact bringing out 4 consultants/specialist on demand, the problem is more likely the overpowering nature of the abilities that the consultants/specialists provide once the show up rather than how the contact was brought into play. Those would be what I would be most interested in hearing about, as I can curb some of them as part of work I've already got going on.