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Author Topic: Economics question  (Read 4300 times)
OverNinja
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« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2007, 02:22:32 AM »

And even Artificers, who gain a pool of xp for making items, don't mess with the economy too much.
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« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2007, 02:38:58 AM »

Remember that by 3.5 rules, they have to burn xp to make items normally.  I think they're doing away with that in 4th edition, but as I understand it, a wizard would only be able to expend the xp they've acquired in their most recent level.. they can't lose levels by making items.  So that means they'd still have to go out adventuring from time to time to get more xp.
So it's a bit strange, but not inherently economy-destroying.

You only pay xp for magic items, the only requirement for mundane items is time, which is essentially negated by fabricate.  So you have an infinite source of mundane items, so long as they are made of - Iron, Stone or Vegetative Matter [it doesn't specify which, as long as its vegetative matter, which lets you have wood, food, drugs / poisons]. 

Incidently you can also get huge volumes of "Flesh", but i'm not sure what you would do with that as it doesn't specify what kind of flesh, or if its edible. [The old wall of stone spell, followed by a stone to flesh spell]

In short, anything that lets you have infinite anything for nothing, is bad, in my not very humble opinion.

Admittedly though, the thought of the Dwarves finding out their entire mining operation has been replaced by mid level wizards does tickle me.
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« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2007, 02:45:09 AM »

Not surprisingly, the Spellbound version of many of these spells has distinctly limited applications. Most material creating spells have a duration - and the caster is out his spell points until he dissmisses the spell. So, give up 5 spell points forever and sure, you have a pile of iron to work with. Crappy trade in the eyes of most mages Wink.

Similarly, the fabricating spells are tied to the skills of the casters, so you want quality product you need quality skills, with magic being a tool not a total replacement for skill. And most people who go to the troble of mastering magic to that degree aren't just gonna put down their ambitions to become the town's new one man factory.
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« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2007, 04:12:23 AM »

Wall of iron kicks in at Wiz11/Sor12 (the latter is the more effective as you immediately pick up 3 implementations a day while you have to wait until 13th for the wiz) - so that's past the half-way point of your career.

Anyhow, for each casting you get a 3 inch deep by 55 sq ft slab of pure iron. You don't have to mine or refine that metal so you're instantly avoiding the costs of a mine, miners and a refinery, along with the environmental footprint of the same. However, each slab is costing you 50 gp + a small (say a Mintie wrapper sized) sheet of iron, and must further be smelted into ingots for it to provide any form of manufacturing benefit

Given the existence of flesh-to-stone, there should be a mass version of that spell that lets you easily turn your dead enemies into building materials...
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« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2007, 11:15:46 AM »

Not surprisingly, the Spellbound version of many of these spells has distinctly limited applications. Most material creating spells have a duration - and the caster is out his spell points until he dissmisses the spell. So, give up 5 spell points forever and sure, you have a pile of iron to work with. Crappy trade in the eyes of most mages Wink.

I like this approach to "perminant" spells.  Loads of potential for my old mage / rogue to come back in fantasy craft [thou as a far superior Conjurer / Faceman] and sell some snake oil.

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Similarly, the fabricating spells are tied to the skills of the casters, so you want quality product you need quality skills, with magic being a tool not a total replacement for skill. And most people who go to the troble of mastering magic to that degree aren't just gonna put down their ambitions to become the town's new one man factory.

My thought on this was more of a specialist training, must like trade schools today, where you go to learn magical production methods instead of learning to be a carpenter.

Just out of interest, do these spells, or any other, have a method of forcing you to cast it on flat ground? Or can one summon a several foot thick slab of iron above something nasty? [This question comes from a friend of mine realising that mount as a 30 ft range, and that horses are heavy, and doesn't specify that the horse appears only on ground levels].
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« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2007, 11:43:36 AM »

Just out of interest, do these spells, or any other, have a method of forcing you to cast it on flat ground? Or can one summon a several foot thick slab of iron above something nasty? [This question comes from a friend of mine realising that mount as a 30 ft range, and that horses are heavy, and doesn't specify that the horse appears only on ground levels].

In D&D that's taken care of in the general 3.5 conjuration/summoning rules. You can only summon something into its natural habitat as it were. So fish must be summoned into water and only flying creatures can be summoned in the air. I'll assume FantasyCraft/Spellbound will have a similar restriction.
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« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2007, 01:41:50 PM »

But with some of the spells in D&D, a caster and a craftsman or three can make some very sturdy stuff out of wood.

With the wall of iron and fabricate spell, a wizard can churn out a silly volume of armor and weaponry all on his lonesome.  Which leads to the greater Economics question of: If casters can conjure materials from nowhere, how does industry exist at all?  Between: Major Creation, Wall of Iron, Wall of Stone, and Fabricate spells you can create almost anything you need [Fortresses, housing clothing, weaponry, armour, food] all without the need for tools, or even physical labor.

How DnD economics, let alone ecologies exist in a stable fashion has been beyond me since our group started playing 3rd ed, and i became aware of how wizards could upset the balance of society.

All thats probably a part of why I prefer Low-Magic settings, but of course I'll be interested to see how the Crafty Four present "the Conjurer" for spellbound.

Because they're wizards.  The general attitude found among the wizarding folk in most fantasy worlds is a hyped up rendition of the ivory tower academic.  A wizard might use magic to raise his tower, but make the armor for his guards?  Go into business fabrication armor for the grogs?  Magic is an art and not to be debased by such low concerns as commerce.

Just out of interest, do these spells, or any other, have a method of forcing you to cast it on flat ground? Or can one summon a several foot thick slab of iron above something nasty? [This question comes from a friend of mine realising that mount as a 30 ft range, and that horses are heavy, and doesn't specify that the horse appears only on ground levels].

In D&D that's taken care of in the general 3.5 conjuration/summoning rules. You can only summon something into its natural habitat as it were. So fish must be summoned into water and only flying creatures can be summoned in the air. I'll assume FantasyCraft/Spellbound will have a similar restriction.

There's also the general principle that D&D spells do what they say and nothing else and a lot of the unintended effects spells have specific verbage preventing those effects in 3.0 and 3.5.
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« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2007, 08:46:00 PM »

Not surprisingly, the Spellbound version of many of these spells has distinctly limited applications. Most material creating spells have a duration - and the caster is out his spell points until he dissmisses the spell. So, give up 5 spell points forever and sure, you have a pile of iron to work with. Crappy trade in the eyes of most mages Wink.
Oh, I can think of some downright vicious uses of that rule for the clever and far sighted wizard.  The fact that spell points renew by scene, however, robs it of true dramatic potential. [now where's that evil devil smilie...]
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Bill Whitmore
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« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2007, 09:12:12 PM »

Oh, I can think of some downright vicious uses of that rule for the clever and far sighted wizard.

Hehe, you could disguise yourself and get hired on as part of the team that is construcing a rival wizard's keep.  If you managed to get some of your conjured stone used as the foundation of the structure, then you could collapse the tower later when you dismissed the spell, perhaps weeks, months or even years later when it falls under siege. Grin
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« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2007, 06:02:51 PM »

That strikes me as an extremely elven thing to do.  Smiley
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« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2007, 01:59:18 AM »

And that would be why people invented spells to make sure they can tell magically-created materials from mundane ones, why Wall of Iron doesn't break the economy and why the dwarves still make a living mining while the elves (who presumably don't intend to trade away their stuff) can afford to just conjure it and tie up their magical resources for as long as they're needed.

...atleast that's how I'd play it. Smiley

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« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2007, 02:29:28 AM »

I must admit I wouldn't use conjured stone for an enemy castle wall. I'd use conjured stone elementals... That way I'd have little engines of destruction right at hand as the walls were breached. Conjurors are pretty much the masters of elementals in the Spellbound system of schools.
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