A D20 / Spycraft Mechanic question.

[TheTSKoala]

In all my games I've played in and GM'd / GC'd/ DM'd, I've never run across this... and i figured someone probably has.  My player wants to roll up a character that'll be a Spec Ops / Sniper type of character.  Which is cool to me.  Then I realized, I've never handled a "sniping" situation before.

Here's my question.  Sniper is concealed and his target is unaware of the threat and is not in combat.  Can the sniper (providing he has the various skills and feats to allow him to) attempt a Coup de Grace?  I know once the target is in combat or at least taking some sort of action, Coup's don't trigger unless they're knocked out, etc.  Any insight is great! 

[Crafty_Pat]

Look up terminal situations (sidebar on page 350). It covers most of what you want. The rest of the equation is in threat ranges and the high damage of bolt-action rifles. A clean shot to wounds is often enough to take out even the sturdiest target - especially if you're a Sniper and your threat range explodes accordingly.

[TheTSKoala]

Awesome!  Thanks Crafty Pat! 

[Merxiless]

1.0:
Sniper Feat (from p. 77-78), Spycraft
Seems to me that the increase of threat range by 5%, combined with the fact that any threat roll is an auto critical, without spending action dice, well, that's a lot of damage if you make the shot.

Pages 166 "coup de Grace" and 177 "Helpless" clearly state that you have to be adjacent.

2.0: Unless I missed it somewhere, there should be a combat state called "surprised", though from the rules "vulnerable" seems to fit this case.

Of course, you can use "Terminal Situations" as GC Fiat.  I'm actually for that, as far as it goes, just seems like with the otherwise completeness of the rules, it's a minor omission to not have some kind of one shot kill rule.

Again, I'd go with terminal situations, then if the target has friends, run the rest of the ambush (If any) as resultant follow-on combat.

[TheTSKoala]

Merx, my hats off to you as well.  If / When the situation arises, Terminal Situation it shall be.  Though, my sniper will only get one shot as once you hear a sniper rifle go off, you normally take cover and are more 'aware'. heh.

[Crafty_Pat]

Of course, you can use "Terminal Situations" as GC Fiat.  I'm actually for that, as far as it goes, just seems like with the otherwise completeness of the rules, it's a minor omission to not have some kind of one shot kill rule.

Again, I'd go with terminal situations, then if the target has friends, run the rest of the ambush (If any) as resultant follow-on combat.

The terminal situations rule is really the only fair way to handle the situation mechanically, as any combination of abilities and actions that resulted in a reliable single-shot kill without gross level or type variation - as you see in some class options intended only to target lower-level standard NPCs - could and should also be used against the player characters. And really, who wants that?

[TheTSKoala]

Yeah.  That's the last thing I need.. everyone trading 1 hit kill abilities.  Espicially with one female in my group.  Looooooves to make things either explode, or put as many shots down range as she can possibly fathom.  Seriously, if Rambo ever had a daughter, she's in my group.

[Merxiless]

Well, it depends on flavor.  Many games, using other RPGs, we had a PC get sniped by NPCs, it was just the nature of the setting, and players were cautious, took their time, and made lots of spot and recon rolls.

Or we played those games that used "luck" points, to dull the instant kill edge of a bad guy sniper.

I like the Terminal situations rule, as I stated, and the relative lethality of SC 2.0.

But I'm trying to get to the idea, that in the end, it's still going to be GC call, whereas the rest of the system is relatively well defined hard core rules.

[OverNinja]

Your sniper is going to love World on Fire 

There's: Draw a Bead & Target in the Well (which has a nice little trick named Headshot)

I'll give you three guesses what the trick does   

[Krensky]

Generally, I've run sniping by the Marine Force Recon Lance Corporal in my SG-1 game via normal combat.  He can pull a critical off without much issues whenever he needs to, but there's a certain edge in him not knowing if his shot will hit.

[TheTSKoala]

Yeah... now we just have to get Mongoose to hand over the goods!  -I- can't wait for WoF, never mind my players! lol.

[spinningdice]

The feat in WoF has an important restriction that nicely restricts it from sniping certain targets (& effectively removes it as an option for killing PC's).

[flair101]

I think the problem with sniping is that most people have never shot a high power scoped rifle at a long distance target.  There are a ton of issues which make most shots very difficult.  Wind, bullet travel time and gravity are the major issues.

Further, most people liken their characters to snipers in movies (i.e Shooter, Enemy at the Gates) whereas in reality, those characters are likely extremely high level.

For a good feel of how hard sniping is, try Call of Duty 4.  It features an incredibly difficult sniping scene that requires the player to account for wind, bullet drop and travel time as well as retry many many times.

I would highly suggest using the standard combat rules for sniping.  Simply lining up a target in crosshairs is not all that is required to shoot someone in the head.  The combat roll accounts for errors in calculating range or wind, the target moving in the second or 2 that the bullet takes to get to his head, or any of the many things that can go wrong in combat.

[OverNinja]

I think the problem with sniping is that most people have never shot a high power scoped rifle at a long distance target.  There are a ton of issues which make most shots very difficult.  Wind, bullet travel time and gravity are the major issues.

Been there, done that.

I would highly suggest using the standard combat rules for sniping.  Simply lining up a target in crosshairs is not all that is required to shoot someone in the head.  The combat roll accounts for errors in calculating range or wind, the target moving in the second or 2 that the bullet takes to get to his head, or any of the many things that can go wrong in combat.

I think the Terminal situation is fair to the players who have probably done a great deal to get into that position to have that one good shot. Even the mastermind could be killed this way, if it's appropriate (for story/mission point of view). If killing sentries like this moves the action along to more important things, I think this is the right way to go.
Once the combat starts, there will be normal combat rolls even when using Headshot trick. Besides you use Check Fire if you're unsure of your shot.

[TheTSKoala]

I think the problem with sniping is that most people have never shot a high power scoped rifle at a long distance target.  There are a ton of issues which make most shots very difficult.  Wind, bullet travel time and gravity are the major issues.

Further, most people liken their characters to snipers in movies (i.e Shooter, Enemy at the Gates) whereas in reality, those characters are likely extremely high level.

For a good feel of how hard sniping is, try Call of Duty 4.  It features an incredibly difficult sniping scene that requires the player to account for wind, bullet drop and travel time as well as retry many many times.

I would highly suggest using the standard combat rules for sniping.  Simply lining up a target in crosshairs is not all that is required to shoot someone in the head.  The combat roll accounts for errors in calculating range or wind, the target moving in the second or 2 that the bullet takes to get to his head, or any of the many things that can go wrong in combat.

Oh, don't worry.  My player fully grasps the trials and tribulations of Marksmanship and sharpshooting.  He's been doing it for the better 3/4ths of his career.  We were just trying to translate it into game terms that didn't break the poor game.