More than meets the eye

[Krensky]

Good.  I don't like their system or the (admittedly few) products of theirs I've dealt with and I've had more then a few run ins Megaversal system chauvinists, but I hate to see a long operating company in this industry go belly up.  Especially for things outside of their control.

But back to the topic at hand:

Scale systems can and do work well, if they're well thought out and go up and down.  The main issue here is that other then Crafty not letting us see the magic behind converting muzzle energy, reliability, etc into game stats SC2 already has all the mechanics to approximate large scale weapons and given the very large sample size in SC1, 1.5, and 2 there's enough to make good and playable stats for purely fictional weapons of almost any tech level (with whatever-lock firearms being the only real exception, which I'm guessing either Fantasy Craft or a BFoG will address).

[Aragathor]

Well, standard D20 rules for handling upscaled weaponary increases the damage die one step, so an equivalent of a 9mm handgun scaled for a cybertronian is going to do 1d12+1 damage. I seem to recall that in addition to this, upscaled weapons increase caliber by 1 grade. However, that's going to put a lot of toys out of people's reach.

This rule does not sit well with the TF facts. TF's can dish out a lot more damage than "next die type".

Probably the simplest way of handling the large, vehicular scale weapons would be to use vehicle weapons.  The aformentioned Ratchet's gun is really just a 20mm (or maybe 30mm) machine pistol, or near enough to it not to matter.

Ratchet is one of the weaker TF's...
Using those rules we hit several problems at once:
-Upgrades
-Caliber
-Type (Ironhides rockets, Optimus energy rifle and so on)

[Mister Andersen]

This rule does not sit well with the TF facts. TF's can dish out a lot more damage than "next die type".

Sure they can - the die increase is really only a melee weapon thing - but it's a reasonable enough place to start. At some point you've got to hit the retros and attempt to build the Trannies and their toys with an eye towards balance - the tools for playable characters on the scale (Huge and greater) of Prime and the rest aren't really here until C:S comes out.

Until then, using vehicle and tactical weapons is probably the easiest and simplest thing to do if you want to crank out the high damage numbers. Vehiclular weapons are really dirt cheap compared to ordinary weapons - just compare a vehicular machine gun to a man portable one.

And there's always the staff weapon and its vehicular equivalent from SG-1 that arguably can have Cybertronian added to the benefit of its CUL quality - there's at least 6d6 worth of damage right there.

Of course, you could look at the stupidly high yield weapons as mission gear - recovetring the All Spark is surely a Cal V mission...

[Morgenstern]

The talent is very cleanly executed, though deeply reviled (-1.5) should be 2 grades, not 1 (1 grade is only worth -1.0). *nods* Well done.

[Krensky]

Probably the simplest way of handling the large, vehicular scale weapons would be to use vehicle weapons.  The aformentioned Ratchet's gun is really just a 20mm (or maybe 30mm) machine pistol, or near enough to it not to matter.

Ratchet is one of the weaker TF's...
Using those rules we hit several problems at once:
-Upgrades
-Caliber
-Type (Ironhides rockets, Optimus energy rifle and so on)

I fail to see how upgrades and caliber things are problems.  Things to be determined as part of the design process, maybe, but not problems.  At the best they're low speed bumps, not road blocks.  As for type, that's not much of an issue.  Slug throwers work via normal rules, missiles and rockets are already in the book, energry weapons get a quality that makes their damage type laser for most example, although something esoteric might use electrical or heat or whatever is appropriate.  Or if they should function in a similar fashion to slug throwers (which pretty much describes all the "energy" weapons I remember in the first series cartoon and the movie, just treat them as slug throwers and call the round a energy bolt.

Do you have any specifics?

[Darth Sephiroth]

Arcee is still going to be Large in her robot form - judging by this picture, assuming a wheel size of 1.5', get a bot at least 7.5' tall from a racing bike.

Anything Frenzy's size is probably going to be handled by a 1st level feat similar to the one above

Unfortunately those are Personal Vehicles and as such wouldn't work as written.

[Mister Andersen]

The talent is very cleanly executed, though deeply reviled (-1.5) should be 2 grades, not 1 (1 grade is only worth -1.0). *nods* Well done.

Yeah, that's an artifact of a slightly earlier version before I had to add in the cost of the armour.

Unfortunately those are Personal Vehicles and as such wouldn't work as written.

Easily fixed.

• You gain the augmented (proteus device) quality. .You may assume an alternate form of any powered vehicle of up to caliber IV that is either Medium or Large in size; this form may be changed every time you achieve a new level, and must be purchased as part of your Possessions or Mission Gear. Further, you must possess the appropriate Drive focus, and gain a Synergy bonus to your Drive check from your Athletics and Acrobatics skills. When in robot mode, all integral equipment of this vehicle is available to you; any gear or upgrades installed in the vehicle form may be accessed by spending an action die; in the case of upgrades that affect your Acceleration and Turning ratings, the value is applied to your Strength and Dexterity modifier respectively when making Acrobatics/Jump, Acrobatics/Tumble, Athletics/Maneuver and Athletics/Sport checks, and the Bullrush combat action. [2.0]
  
  

While I like the elegance of the underlined text, I'm considering changing it to"

"all upgrades cost an additional slot, however their benefits are available to you in both robot and vehicle modes"

[Forcegypsy]

Mister Anderson, I'm surprised you can't hear my clapping from over there. Well done!

[Mister Andersen]

Cybertronian. More than meets the eye, you are an autonomous robotic entity capable of assuming a vehicular form.
      Requirement: Culture (Cybertron).
      Type: Large humanoid complex construct (2x2). You are immune to vacuum damage as well as all posions and contagions except Radiation and those specifically designed to affect constructs, and do not breathe so never need to make Drowing checks. When you suffer a critical injury result of 41 or higher, you instead suffer -4 permanent damage to a randomly selected attribute until repaired), and apart from the Refresh action can only heal with a Mechanics (Int) check using the Medicine/First Aid or Medicine/Surgery rules, as appropriate; attempts to treat you with human science suffer a -8 penalty (the Cybertron focus for Cultures is required to avoid this penalty). You may not attempt to disguise yourself as or blend in with humans. Finally, you do not receive the bonus feat due to your Specialty unless it is Guardian, Hunter, Ironman, Motor Head, Special Ops or Technician. [2.5]

• +4 Strength / -4 Charisma. [2.5]
  
• You gain the achilles heel (cold), achilles heel (EMP), achilles heel (radiation), augmented (x1.5-4 day/night sight), augmented (x1.5-4 thermal sight), augmented (desktop computer I), augmented (parabolic microphone) and augmented (raid jacket) qualities. [2.5]
  
• You gain the augmented (proteus device) quality. You may assume an alternate form of any Large powered vehicle of up to caliber IV; this form may be changed during the Intel Phase of each mission, must be purchased as part of your Possessions or Mission Gear, and its maximum caliber is determined by the vehicle available due to your Lifestyle. Further, you must possess the appropriate Drive focus, and you gain a Synergy bonus to your Drive check from your Athletics and Acrobatics skills. When in robot mode all integral equipment of this vehicle is available to you. All upgrades purchased for your vehicle mode cost an additional slot, however their benefits are available to you in both robot and vehicle modes; in the case of upgrades that affect your Acceleration and Turning ratings, the value is applied to your Strength and Dexterity modifier respectively when making Acrobatics/Jump, Acrobatics/Tumble, Athletics/Maneuver, Athletics/Smash and Athletics/Sport checks, and the Bullrush combat action. [2.0]
  
• Favoured Classes: If you have more levels in any base class than your highest level in either Pointman or Wheelman, your starting action dice are reduced by 2. [-1.0]
  
• Deeply Reviled: The starting disposition of any character that does not share your native culture and is aware of your Origin is reduced by 2 grades. [-1.5]
  
  
  
  
  

New Feats

Micro-Master
Judge you not by your size.
   Prerequisite: Cybertronian. Career level 1 when chosen.
   Benefit: Your base size in Robot mode is Medium (1x1) and your base Defence score increases by 2. Your alternate mode may be chosen from any type of Electronic, animal Resource, powered Armour or powered Vehicle pick up to caliber IV that is Tiny or Small in size; maximum caliber remains determined by your Lifestyle rating. Additionally, the list of Specialties that allow you to retain your bonus feat is expanded to include Criminal, Geek and Operative. Finally, Hacker is added to your list of Favoured classes.

Mini-Changer
It's not about how big you are.
   Prerequisite: Cybertronian. Career level 1 when chosen.
   Benefit: Your base size in Robot mode is Large (1x1) and your base Defence score increases by 1. Your alternate mode may be chosen from any type of animal Resource or powered Vehicle pick up to caliber IV that is Small or Medium in size; maximum caliber remains determined by your Lifestyle rating. Additionally, the list of Specialties that allow you to retain your bonus feat is expanded to include Citizen, Taxidriver and Thrillseeker. Finally, Intruder is added to your list of Favoured classes.

More Than Meets The Eye
Your alternate form is bigger than normal.
   Prerequisite: Cybertronian. Constitution 16+.
   Benefit: Your alternate form may be 1 size category larger than normal. Further, for purposes of determining the outcome of grapple checks and bullrush actions, your robot mode size is similarly considered to be 1 size category larger than normal. Finally, Thug is added to your list of favoured classes.¹


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1. Yes, this is not a career level 1 only feat. There's nothing about Favoured Class that stops you adding new ones at later levels, so a Wheelman 1 / Thug 2 picking this feat up at level 3 would not be hit with the AD penalty.

[Darth Sephiroth]

That seems a lot closer to how they're described.

I'm kind of wondering how you'd cover the vast number of Autobots and Decepticons who seem to fit the Soldier class rather than the others here.

[Mister Andersen]

They have soldier levels. They just also have levels in Wheelman or something else - and I think Thugs have a lot of nice tricks that don't focus exclusively on weapon proficiency.

[Gatac]

Woah...with two feats, you also covered Beast Wars-type Cybertronians.

Did I mention that I love you?

Gatac

[Mister Andersen]

That's more of a happenstance - I was thinking more of allowing for the presence of my very first Transformer:

Beast War era folks were something I was going to handle with a campaign quality that allows alt-forms patterned after animals to be organic (and as an effect of that, allow Cybertronians to heal naturally without having to invest in a feat/gear)

[glimmerrat]

Lol my first one was Huffer, with my pocket money. Then i convinced my mum to buy me Jazz.

[Mister Andersen]

Cute, isn't he?

My complete Transformers ownership consisted of G1 Ravage & Rumble, G1 Bumblebee, G1 Lockjaw & whomever his partner tape was, G1 Jetfire (whom I still own, but minus his head and rifle)¹, G1 Sharkticon (only because it was a birthday present) and Transmetal II Megatron (whom I still own because he is just the prettiest damn Transformer evah, and he's a frickin' dragon).


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1. I took it off to use him as an exoskeleton for a little Balinese wooden owl. Then one day the head and the gun just both vanished and I could never find them