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Author Topic: I sit on the lighter end of rules spectrum , will 3.0 be for me?  (Read 3618 times)
Gundark
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« on: November 11, 2012, 05:57:34 PM »

I ran a classic game in the past, one which my group really enjoyed . We were pretty excited when 2.0 came out, then played a campaign which was less fun. While there were brilliant parts to 2.0, the rules were heavy. I picked up fantasycraft, but did not run a game as the rules are dense, and you can't alter the system much without affecting  large parts of the system.

So while my memories of spycraft classic make me interested in 3rd, I have to wonder if I will be faced with a dense set of rules which would make it a pass for me.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 06:57:00 PM by Gundark » Logged
Crafty_Pat
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« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2012, 02:54:14 PM »

To succinctly answer your thread title question...

"Most definitely, yes."

Speaking strictly in terms of previous editions, Spycraft Third is much closer to Classic than 2.0.

Speaking from the inside, watching the system develop and now having seen it run in full alpha state, I would argue that it's actually significantly less complex even than Classic.

This is not a dense game. Not even close. Robust, yes. Dense? Not. At. All.
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« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2012, 05:56:28 PM »

Just to echo (and confirm): It's less dense than FantasyCraft?

FC is a fantastic book, but as Gundark says, you get a real sense that if you change something over here, something waaaay over there that you never even considered is thrown out of whack as a result.

To kick off an analogy: FC (to me, at least) feels like a miniature Swiss Watch. Every piece moving in perfect harmony, but so complicated and interdependant that if you move that little spring, the whole thing falls apart. Which is kind of daunting  Shocked
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 06:13:07 PM by Viperion » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2012, 08:31:26 PM »

Just to echo (and confirm): It's less dense than FantasyCraft?

FC is a fantastic book, but as Gundark says, you get a real sense that if you change something over here, something waaaay over there that you never even considered is thrown out of whack as a result.

To kick off an analogy: FC (to me, at least) feels like a miniature Swiss Watch. Every piece moving in perfect harmony, but so complicated and interdependant that if you move that little spring, the whole thing falls apart. Which is kind of daunting  Shocked

Short answer: absolutely.

Long answer: The "Swiss Watch" aspect of FC has been on Pat's and my "to-fix" list since day 1 of the development process (over a year so far). We have heard very clearly, from a great many people in a great number of ways, that while they everything runs well, sometimes they need to pull it apart (because they want to tweak their game, because their players don't like a certain feature, because they don't have the time or will to use certain rules assumed as the core, etc.). We use the term "decoupling" a lot in this process, because we believe that having things run well alongside, but largely independent of, one another is a strength which will enable groups, rather than forcing them into a certain set of rules.

Now that doesn't mean everything can be broken off (like skills or the d20) but it does mean you don't have the cascading issues when you choose to hack your game however you like. Obviously, we'll be including lots of information to help you tweak to your heart's delight, and to provide those who don't care or want something "out of the box" to just pick up and run, but you'll find SC3 to be much more compartmentalized to prevent against the unintended consequences of the tweaking we so actively encourage.
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« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2012, 08:48:09 PM »

Youse fullas are oarsome Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

C'mere and gimme a hug!

Ahem. Back to your regularly scheduled patient waiting. (Is it here yet?)
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 08:50:05 PM by Viperion » Logged
Gundark
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« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2012, 08:53:22 PM »

Yeah , it's good to hear that it will be lighter. It made me nervous initially as Mastercraft was supposed to be easier and more streamlined, to which IMHO it's not. If you're going to layer on complexity, then make those layers easy to remove, not an interconnected tapestry , or like the Swiss watch idea.
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« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2012, 10:59:15 PM »

Yeah , it's good to hear that it will be lighter. It made me nervous initially as Mastercraft was supposed to be easier and more streamlined, to which IMHO it's not. If you're going to layer on complexity, then make those layers easy to remove, not an interconnected tapestry , or like the Swiss watch idea.

Definitely don't hold up Fantasy Craft as any indication of Spycraft Third's density or complexity. Even with the tweaks we made there, Fantasy Craft was still a pretty interconnected engine with quite a few rules that looked modular and weren't, not really.

When we say Spycraft Third will be modular and easy to grasp and run, we mean it. This is an entirely different beast now - and based on your feedback, very much for the better.
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« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2012, 11:31:56 PM »

I am way early in the game I am 100% sure, but will the lessons learned from FantasyCraft/Mastercraft and the lightening of Spycraft 3 lead to perhaps a FantasyCraft 2? Even if it is just an add on like the Origin of the Species?
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« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2012, 11:47:43 PM »

Its going to be fascinating to see how this 'decoupling' plays out. Order of the Stick has made an art form out of harpooning weak connections in D&D concepts like characters doubling in size with a spell not having the slightest impact on their speed.
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« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2012, 01:54:24 AM »

This thread just made SC3 move from my "Take a Look at It" list, to my "Must Buy" list.
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« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2012, 02:51:34 AM »

I am way early in the game I am 100% sure, but will the lessons learned from FantasyCraft/Mastercraft and the lightening of Spycraft 3 lead to perhaps a FantasyCraft 2? Even if it is just an add on like the Origin of the Species?

Fantasy Craft is what it is, and it's a strong game for it - a very different beast than Spycraft Third. There are no current plans for a second edition of Fantasy Craft, nor a drastic deviation from that game's assigned path. That of course just speaks for its foreseeable future - who knows what may lie beyond that horizon.
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« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2012, 02:52:54 AM »

This thread just made SC3 move from my "Take a Look at It" list, to my "Must Buy" list.

 Smiley
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Patrick Kapera
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« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2012, 02:54:09 AM »

Its going to be fascinating to see how this 'decoupling' plays out. Order of the Stick has made an art form out of harpooning weak connections in D&D concepts like characters doubling in size with a spell not having the slightest impact on their speed.

I have a feeling we're far enough outside OotS's preferred territory that they wouldn't even consider us a landmark.
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« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2012, 06:37:40 AM »

This thread just made SC3 move from my "Take a Look at It" list, to my "Must Buy" list.

It actually had the opposite effect on me.  I'd be concerned about the end product if it wasn't for Crafty's track record firmly keeping them as a company I can trust.  That and I understand that answering one specific question while at an early playtest stage is in absolutely no way indicative of the finalised product.
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« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2012, 09:30:05 AM »

This thread just made SC3 move from my "Take a Look at It" list, to my "Must Buy" list.

It actually had the opposite effect on me.  I'd be concerned about the end product if it wasn't for Crafty's track record firmly keeping them as a company I can trust.  That and I understand that answering one specific question while at an early playtest stage is in absolutely no way indicative of the finalised product.

I'm cautiously intrigued.  As long as this 'Mastercraft' idea hasn't suddenly gone by the wayside, I trust in the Crafty.  One of the strong draws for a new version was for 'Crafty Products' that could invade other Crafty Products.  And.. this is no way questioning or giving the query eye to the Crafty.  They've made solid products in their entire lifetime.  Timelines have been their only bump on the head.  I'll trust em and see what they put out.  

Plus.. I think my group will welcome a 'lighter' or more modular, quick response SC3.0.  I LOVED SC2, my player base though.. they were weighted down sometimes by XYZ. 
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 09:31:47 AM by TheTSKoala » Logged
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