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Author Topic: Crit Threat and Crit Error chart thoughts ?  (Read 707 times)
Wireless
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« on: November 08, 2012, 01:21:48 AM »

I put this together and throwing it out there for comment.
Critical Errors       
Max AD   Min Error   
Unarmed      
1   1   Character sprawled
1   1   Damaged by scenery ( 1d6 subdual )
2   1   Character sprawled , damaged by scenery ( 1d6 subdual )
2   2   Character Stunned ( 1 round )
3   2   Character stunned ( 1 round ) , sprawled
3   2   Damaged by scenery ( 2d6 subdual )
4   3   Character stunned ( 2 rounds ) , sprawled
4   3   Damage by scenery ( 3d6 subdual ) or Attk hits ally within reach
Melee      
1   1   Weapon dropped in same square or stuck in scenery ( full action to remove )
1   1   Character sprawled
2   1   Character sprawled and weapon dropped in same square
2   2   Weapon dam save vs scenery
3   2   Weapon Dam save vs scenery and character sprawled
3   2   Weapon Dam save vs scenery and weapon dropped ( deviation 1d8 , range 1d4 )
4   3   Weapon 2 Dam saves vs scenery and character takes weapon Damage
4   3   Weapon 2 Dam saves vs scenery and Attk hits ally in reach
Ranged      
1   1   Deviation adjusted by GM up to 3 squares ( Attk rolled -3 )
1   1   Weapon dropped in same square
2   1   Weapon dropped in same square , GM adjust deviation up to 3 squares ( Attk rolled )
2   2   Weapon Dam save and weapon dropped in same square
3   2   Weapon Dam save , GM adjust deviation up to 5 squares ( Attk Hits )
3   2   Weapon Dam save , weapon dropped ( deviation 1d8 , range 1d4 )
4   3   Weapon 2 Dam saves , charater takes dam
4   3   Weapon 2 Dam saves , GM adjust deviation up to 9 squares ( Attk hits )
Hurled      
1   1   Weapon dropped in square
1   1   Deviation adjusted by GM up to 3 squares ( Attk rolled -3 )
2   1   Characted sprawled , GM adjust deviation up to 3 squares ( Attk rolled )
2   2   Weapon Dam save , GM adjust deviation up to 3 squares ( Attk rolled )
3   2   Weapon Dam save , weapon dropped ( deviation 1d8 , range 1d4 )
3   2   Character sprawled , GM adjust deviation up to 5 squares ( Attk Hits )
4   3   Character sprawled , weapon Dam save , GM adjust deviation up to 5 ( Attk hits )
4   3   Character sprawled , weapon Dam save , charated takes damage
      
Critical Threats      
Unarmed / Natural Attk / Melee / Ranged / Hurled      
Max AD   Min Threat   
1   1   Attk gains AP 5
1   1   Attk gains Keen 10
2   1   Attk gains AP5 and keen 10
2   2   Attk gains AP 5 and keen 15
3   2   Attk gains AP 10 and keen 20
3   2   Attk gain AP 5 and straight to wounds
4   3   Attk gains AP 10 and keen 40
4   3   Attk gains AP10 and straight to wounds
4   3   Attk causes oppenent to be Blinded , Deafened , or Stunned ( 2d3 rounds )
   All Attks = DC on table of ouch vs full damage    
      
Substitues       
*   May subtract 5 AP to sprawl   
*   May subtract 15 keen to stun ( 1 round )   
*   May subtrat 10 AP to multiplt dam by 1.5   
*   May subtract 10 AP to cause slowed ( 1d6 rounds )   

Does anyone see anything super broken ?
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Wireless
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« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2012, 01:24:29 AM »

It got mushed when i pasted it. First number should be for max AD you can spend. Second number is the minimum threat/ error you must have to use this option.

So.......  Any thoughts ?
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Blankbeard
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« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2012, 02:20:24 AM »

It's been said that an elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.  That is a critical hit system built to government specifications. Smiley 

I'll have a serious comment for you tomorrow on both the threads you have going here.

Oh, if you're doing this in a spreadsheet, export it to .csv and try this.  to make a table that works with the boards here.
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Blankbeard
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« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2012, 08:06:14 AM »

Sorry for the short comment last night.  The first thing to ask is why require a specific error or threat range?  Wouldn't it work just as well to let the action die cost control access to the options?

I think you've got the start of something neat here.  Good work!
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glimmerrat
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« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2012, 08:59:09 AM »

I think there's nothing wrong with this. It works as an optional bolt-on extra, and i'd consider using it.
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« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2012, 01:19:35 PM »

The specific min error range is there to model what i believe error range is for. For example a expert with the bow ( or any weapon ), and a guy off the street shoot at a targets. Lets say the expert has a error of 1 while the guy off the street has a error of 3. The both shoot and miss the targets.

I would expect the expert to just have missed by a little and not done something crazy like shot it straight up. On the other hand guy off the street i would like to be standing behind when he shot because there is a much better chance of loosing control of the bow, and say shooting his car in the parking lot and missing all the targets.

SO... The smaller your error range the more practiced you are and less likely to make bad mistakes. The larger your error range the less likely you are to reduce bad mistakes and thus the more severe results on the chart.

Now As for letting AD control access to those options. I was just tired of the Straight to wounds damage and I wanted to put a little more use out of the table of ouch. Another thing I was feeling is a better guideline for what the critical should mean at a certain AD.
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Deral
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« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2012, 02:28:15 PM »

I've been keen on the idea of putting together a critical error table, if only because the uncertainty of what an error would do makes my players a little iffy on the idea (enemy rolls a natural 1 and the first thing they say is "What would happen if I activate it?"), but errors are so situation it hasn't really worked out for me in the past (making a table, that is).

As for threats, we discussed this a while back on here- http://www.crafty-games.com/forum/index.php?topic=5445.msg99016


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Blankbeard
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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2012, 02:54:23 PM »

I'm still not understanding how this works.  Can you put up a short example (A crits B, then B crits A) to demonstrate how the error range works in game?

And please don't take any comment I make as discouragement.  You can't possibly throw out as much useless crap as I do Smiley

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« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2012, 02:59:35 PM »

The same way they did in SC2.0. Which these tables seem largely cribbed from.
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« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2012, 12:59:24 AM »

Yes the same as SC 2.0 .  

example : you hit big bad with axe You have a threat of 20 , and error of 1.

you roll a 20 and get a threat : you may spend up to 2 AD on the critical ( the first three lines under critical ) Picking line 1,2,or 3 .
1.  spend 1 AD attk gains AP 5
2.  spend 1 AD attk gains keen10
3.  spend 2 AD attk gains AP 5 and keen 10

* you may sub out AP or keen for other effects on bottom of chart say switch AP 5 for sprawling them instead.

 You may not spend more than 2 AD unless your threat range was 19-20. To spend 3 AD you must have a threat range of 19-20. To spend 4 AD you must have a threat of 18-20.

Now lets say big bad swings back with his axe ( melee ) and rolls a 1.  He has a error of 1-2 on his attks. you may :

Spend up to 3 AD to activate his error. Picking from the first six lines of melee error.

You would not be able to spend 4 AD on his error because he would need a error of 1-3 to spend that much AD against him.

Hope that example helps.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 01:01:02 AM by Wireless » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2012, 01:19:23 AM »

Deral the chart is by no means an absolute but more of a limiting guide. I would always change on the fly for something whatever situation is going on. ( or too kewl to pass up )

My hope is the the chart put me and my players on the same page for threats and errors and what to expect when they or I spend AD.  The chart has its own progression. So for example you would expect more than sprawled if you were spending 3 AD to activate someones error.

Every level lets say of spending AD has some choices for example:

activating a ranged critical with 1 AD :
option 1 :Deviation adjusted by GM up to 3 squares ( Attk rolled -3 )
option 2 :Weapon dropped in same square

if you send 2 AD you get both of these or :
Weapon Dam save and weapon dropped in same square

But this is by no means a complete list, but a way of gauging the expected worth of AD. And like all crafty things ( i hope ) you can flavor it any way you want.

 Say for the deviation result in the example above you ( or they ) describe it as an arrow  being deflected by the soldiers shield and hitting the nearby merchant who was not looking.

The one thing it does for good a ill is make the straight to wounds a little harder to do.
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Sletchman
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« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2012, 06:07:10 AM »

While I like the idea of incorporating Keen into critical hits, unless the player has seriously focused on damage output (not easy to get staggeringly high) it's usually far better for the player to simply spend the dice to change to an automatic critical injury.

Spending 3 AD on Keen 20 is pointless unless you have Fragile in play or you can consistently generate >30 points of damage.  You're almost always better off spending 2 to inflict an automatic critical hit (which, by RAW, ignores the fort save - so the only way Keen is better is if you hit the autokill threshold).  Many on this board also reduce the Critical Injury cost to 1AD, too, which puts it in further harsh light.

The AP idea is interesting though.  I've allowed critical hits to bypass armour entirely in the past (usually at the cost of a couple dice) so formalising it is probably a good idea.

While none of it is broken / unbalanced, it does severely diminish the value of critical threats from the core game.  3 Dice to inflict damage to wounds is a pretty enormous cost, and could have some fallback on builds that specialise in special character hunting.  I suspect that reducing the value of critical threats was part of the goal of this list though, so that's not necessarily a problem.

Finally, you might want to clarify your critical threat chart - I'm not sure what you mean by minimum threat of 1/2/3.  Do you mean 20/19/18?  Or threat +1/+2/+3 (which would be 19/18/17)?  I'd be confused if I sat at a table with that chart.   Just something to be aware of.
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Bill Whitmore
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« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2012, 06:49:21 AM »

Spending 3 AD on Keen 20 is pointless unless you have Fragile in play or you can consistently generate >30 points of damage.

Just to clarify a point, Critical Injury saves are forced with 25 points of damage, not 50.

Page 208: "Each time a character suffers 25 or more points of damage in a single hit, he makes a Fortitude save (DC 1/2 the damage suffered, rounded down). With failure, he rolls 1d20 and adds the damage suffered, consulting Table 5.1: The Table of Ouch to find his critical injury (see page 207)."

So an attack with Keen 20 only needs to add an additional 5 actual damage to force a Critical Injury save, rather than the 30 initially listed here, which the vast majority of weapons can do unaided.
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« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2012, 06:54:12 AM »

Spending 3 AD on Keen 20 is pointless unless you have Fragile in play or you can consistently generate >30 points of damage.

Just to clarify a point, Critical Injury saves are forced with 25 points of damage, not 50.

Page 208: "Each time a character suffers 25 or more points of damage in a single hit, he makes a Fortitude save (DC 1/2 the damage suffered, rounded down). With failure, he rolls 1d20 and adds the damage suffered, consulting Table 5.1: The Table of Ouch to find his critical injury (see page 207)."

So an attack with Keen 20 only needs to add an additional 5 actual damage to force a Critical Injury save, rather than the 30 initially listed here, which the vast majority of weapons can do unaided.

Exactly my point.

Currently, you spend 2AD to inflict an automatic critical injury.  No save, they just cop it.

So the only benefit here is if you can inflict a save vs death or die (50 damage, or 25 with Fragile).
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