Back to Crafty Games Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 02, 2014, 01:47:39 PM
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Welcome to the Crafty Games Forums!

Note to New Members: To combat spam, we have instituted new rules: you must post 5 replies to existing threads before you can create new threads.

+  Crafty Games Forum
|-+  Community
| |-+  License to Improvise
| | |-+  [A New Pie] Version 1.2.1
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 12 Go Down Print
Author Topic: [A New Pie] Version 1.2.1  (Read 7316 times)
Morgenstern
Control
******
Posts: 5206



View Profile
« on: October 20, 2012, 01:44:32 AM »

Ok, the 1.2 is an estimate really, but I've got the presentation tightened up quite a bit for easier reference Smiley. Turns out that while there are a few issues in the skills I want to resolve (including the Resolve/Willpower entanglement and the elimination of active/passive skill pairing), my biggest gripe was with the attributes and their resulting lop-sided skill clusters.

Update: Made numerous small changes based on the environmental/technical/social skill themes and included the working version of a new flexible gear comptency scheme for Precision skills

THE ATTRIBUTES

   Awareness (Awr): Attention to your surroundings. Your Awareness modifier is added to initiative rolls, ranged defense, and Reflex saves. The key skill for Awareness is Vigilance and its also tied to Research and Sense Motive checks.
   Determination (Dtr): The drive to reach your goals. Your Determination modifier is added to morale per level, social defense, and Will saves. The key skill for Determination is Focus and its also tied to Intimidate and Survival checks.
   Fitness (Fit): Physical integrity and power. Your Fitness modifier is added to melee/unarmed attack checks and Fortitude Saves. Fitness score sets Health. The key skill for Fitness is Athletics and its also tied to Competition and Stealth checks.
   Grace (Grc): Agility and Elegance. Grace modifier is added to lifestyle, melee/unarmed Defense, and spell (FX) save DCs. The key skill for Grace is Impress and its also tied to Acrobatics and Acting checks.
   Guile (Gul): Cunning and creativity. Your Guile modifier is added to social attack checks and skill points per level. Guile score sets Spells (FX) known. The key skill for Guile is Parley and its also tied to Deception and Tactics checks.
   Precision (Prc): Accuracy and attention to detail. Your Precision modifier is added to starting proficiencies, ranged attack checks, and spellcasting (FX) checks. The key skill for Precision is Expertise and its also tied to Mischief and Profession checks.

FIELDS

   Fields are areas of professional competence, each linked to a category of gear and its use in dramatic situations. The range of fields available is dictated by era of the campaign setting and specific options the GM wishes to make available. While studies can be directed towards nearly any topic, fields only become available when a type of gear allowed in the setting suggests a group of professionals must also exist to provide that gear. Fields allow a character to use the three Precision-based skills Expertise, Mischief, and Profession to perform checks relevant to the equipment the field encompasses. A Player Character gains 1 field of their choice each time they spend a skill point to gain their first rank in Expertise, Mischief, and Profession. A character with ranks in two of those skills would choose 2 fields. A character with ranks in all three skills would have 3 fields, each useable with all three skills. Additional fields may be offered by Origins, Class Abilities, and Feats. If a character receives a specific field from a character option and already has that field, he may instead choose any other field allowed by the setting. NPCs can be given 1 field at no cost for each Precision-based skill they have that has its own rating (rather than a bonus based on competence).
   Once a character has a field, his ways of using that knowledge are expressed by the number of ranks purchased in Expertise, Mischief, and Profession. Expertise represents the ability to apply this knowledge and the tools it creates to challenging situations. Mischief is the ability to turn this knowledge to nefarious ends, circumventing/disrupting the proper operation of the devices, quickly and cheaply producing convincing replicas for the purpose of deception, and altering items to be dangerous to other users. Profession represents the ability to build, repair, innovate, and gain money from this knowledge. Characters with a field do not suffer the penalties for being unskilled when making related Expertise, Mischief, or Profession checks even if they have 0 ranks in that particular skill. Not all fields are equally desirable when used in conjunction with a particular skill... Some may have great impact on play when used with Expertise, but little consequence when used with Profession or visa-versa.

   Examples of Fields Suitable for Contemporary Settings
   Ground Vehicles. Expertise would be used for extreme stunts and chases (Maneuver check). Profession would be use for building or adding features to a car (Assembly check), repairing crash damage (Repair check), designing vehicles for profit (Income check). Mischief would be used for jimmying car doors and hotwiring the starter (Bypass check), for sugaring gas tanks (Disable check), for kitting out a vehicle to mimic the look of a more expensive one (Counterfeit check), and for weakening brake lines to trigger a crash later (Sabotage check). Ground vehicle knowledge might proved the make and models of a vehicle or reveal faster road routes.
   Medicine. Expertise is used to run complex diagnostic instruments and to perform specialized surgery (Operate check). Profession would produce medicines (Assembly check), provide general care (Repair check), and represent work in research or maintaining a private practice (Income check). Mischief covers acquiring patient records or controlled drugs without a prescription (Bypass check), discretely wrecking X-ray machines (Disable check), mixing up some interesting snake oil- er, placebos (Counterfeit check), and sticking unwelcome things like cortex bombs in people (Sabotage check).
   Site Security. Expertise would aid in manning the controls of an active locks, barriers, and camera system (Operate check). Profession would be used for installing and testing biometric locks (Assembly), reconstructing or recovering video logs that have been tampered with (Repair check), or heading up a patrol force (Income check). Mischief would be used for spoofing building ID scanners (Bypass check), Cutting phone service to the building (Disable check), putting together a makeshift company uniform (Counterfeit check), and rigging garage dock doors to fall on pursers as you flee the scene (Sabotage check). Knowledge checks could be used to recall point of contact information for the alarm company or assess a building’s internal security devices after a walk around the perimeter.

Behind the Curtain: Fields and Technological Expectations
   Fields allow a fixed skill list to dynamically adapt to changing gear lists across multiple settings. Using fields, designers and GMs can introduce new technologies - even extremely campaign-specific technologies such as The Iron Kingdoms’ warjack cortexes or Full-Metal Alchemist’s automail cybernetics - without disrupting the balance or roles of the character classes. Fields also allow the designer/GM to collapse multiple fields as they appear in earlier eras into fewer, broader fields in later eras to represent the evolution of ideas, tools, and education. Creating a completely new field begins with creating or organizing the gear category that it addresses. If the use of this gear is self-explanatory ("drink the potion to gain effect") the field will probably not require any new Expertise skill checks. If the gear only functions in the hands of an expert (i.e. a fully furnished surgical operating theater) scripting a check to bring those benefits to bear will be necessary unless an existing Expertise check can be repurposed to serve. Since fields often combine multiple branches of knowledge into a practical whole it is not unusual or improper that two different fields may share some checks.

THE SKILLS

   Acrobatics (Grace): Balance, Breakfall, Tumble (page 69)
   Acting (Grace): “Blend” was Stealth (page 71), “Disguise” was Mask (page 74), Imitate (new)
   Athletics (Fitness): Climb, Jump, Swim (page 70)
   Competition (Fitness): Pursuit (includes while mounted), Push Limit (page 69), Sports (older editions)
   Deception (Guile): Conceal Action, Stash (page 79)
   Expertise* (Precision): Maneuver (page 80), Operate (new)
   Focus (Determination): Concentrate (page 80)
   Impress (Grace): Calm (page 78), Influence, Persuade (page 74)
   Intimidate (Determination): Browbeat, Coerce (page 75)
   Mischief* (Precision): Bypass, Disable, Counterfeit, Sabotage (new)
   Profession* (Precision): Assemble, Repair, Salvage, Income
   Parley (Guile): Bargain (page 74), Lie (page 72), Negotiate (as per Spycraft 2.0)
   Research (Awareness): Decipher (page 76), Identify, Research (page 77)
   Sense Motive (Awareness): Canvass (page 76), Detect Lie (page 82)
   Stealth (Fitness): Hide (page 82)
   Survival (Determination): Forage, Track (page 82)
   Tactics (Guile): Ambush, Outmaneuver (page 83)
   Vigilance (Awareness): “Detect” was awareness (page 78), Perception (page 81)

Skills marked with an * are Field skills, and gain checks or uses for checks for each field the character possesses.

Summary of Changes:
   Acrobatics: Sheds Jump to emphasize agility rather than strength.
   Acting: Combines Blend and Disguise. Does away with active/passive split, instead focusing on use of social factors (crowds, behavior) to avoid detection.
   Athletics: Sheds Push Limit to Competition. Gains Jump. Go-to skill for movment via physical power.
   Competition: New skill for physical interaction. Preping for the return of Chases.
   Deception: Elements of Prestidigitation with several combat actions. Go-to skill for physically misleading opponents.
   Expertise: Field skill absorbing Ride with extra expansibility in modern/futuristic settings. Go-to skill for complex gear use.
   Mischief: Field skill for abusing equipment. Go-to skill for malicious gear use.
   Parley: Bluff + Haggle + negotiation from SC2.0. Go-to skill for talking things out.
   Profession: Field skill replacing Craft. Named for expansibility in modern/futuristic settings. Go-to skill for gear creation.
   Sense Motive Picks up Canvass check as a sort of mass-multiple use of Detect Lie.
   Stealth: Renamed Sneak. Does away with active/passive split, instead focusing on use of physical factors (terrain, lighting) to avoid detection.
   Vigilance: Combines Notice and Search. Does away with active/passive split, instead providing a go to skill for perception.

Combat Actions

   Bull Rush: Competition (Fit) vs. Competition (Fit)
   Feint: Deception (Gul) vs. Vigilance (Dtr)
   Grapple: Competition (Fit) vs. Competition (Fit)
   Taunt: Parley (Gul) vs. Sense Motive (Awr)
   Threaten: Intimidate (Dtr) vs. Focus (Dtr)
   Tire: Tactics (Gul) vs. Focus (Dtr)
   Trip: Acrobatics (Fit) vs. Acrobatics (Fit)
   Anticipate: Sense Motive (Awr) vs. Focus (Drt). Defense bonus = Awareness modifier
   Distract: Deception (Gul) vs. Sense Motive (Awr)
   Stabilize: Expertise - Medical (Prc)

Summary of Changes:
   Bull Rush and Grapple: SHifted from Athletics to Competition to enhance Athletics as environmental and Competition as interpersonal uses of Fitness.
   Taunt: Shifted from Sense Motive to Parley to enhance Guile as the "social attack" attribute.
   Tire: Shifted from Focus to Tactics to enhance Guile as the "social attack" attribute.
   Anticipate: Shifted from BAB to Focus to give better numerical parity and enhance Determination as the "social defense" attribute.
   Stabilize: Skill check folded into combat actions where it will be used most.

Basic Skill Pairs

   In flux. Please Stand by.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 06:58:22 PM by Morgenstern » Logged

At your own pace: Do. It. Now.
How about some pie? - Heroes of the Expanse
Morgenstern
Control
******
Posts: 5206



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2012, 01:44:57 AM »

THE CLASSES

   Common Class Abilities
   Several classes share duplicate, complex mechanics sumarized with a ‘keyword’. Complete keyword text is presented with the abilities in full presentations of classes, but will often be omitted from condensed offerings such as character write-ups, examples, or discussion of gameplay. Full text of these keywords is collected here for reference.

   Flawless. Each time you fail a check with a flawless skill and don’t suffer an error, you still succeed as long as the check DC (or your opponent’s check result) is equal to or less than your Class Level + 20. If several grades of success are possible, you achieve only the lowest possible positive result.
   If you gain the same flawless skill from two or more classes, add together your Class Level in all of those classes when determining the minimum result.


Assassin
   Favored Attributes: Guile & Grace
   Class Skills: Acting, Athletics, Deception, Focus, Intimidate, Mischief, Parley, Stealth, Tactics, Vigilance
   Skill Points: 6 + Guile modifier per level
   Morale: 9 + Determination modifier per level
   Starting proficiencies: 4 + Precision modifier

   Hand of Death: At Level 1 your Acting and Focus are flawless.
   (Flawless. Each time you fail a check with a flawless skill and don’t suffer an error, you still succeed as long as the check DC (or your opponent’s check result) is equal to or less than your Class Level + 20. If several grades of success are possible, you achieve only the lowest possible positive result.
   If you gain the same flawless skill from two or more classes, add together your Class Level in all of those classes when determining the minimum result.)

   Quick on Your Feet: Ambush or Disguise checks as a free action
   Masks – Expert (was Expertise): You become an expert with 1 Assassin Class Skill.
   (Expert. Taking 10 with this skill doesn’t take twice as long and taking 20 takes only 10 times as long.)
   Masks – Fake It: Acting checks to feign knowledge of a field, interest, or skill
   Masks – Follow My Lead: Guile modifier (minimum +1).

Burglar
   Favored Attributes: Fitness & Precision
   Class Skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Competition, Deception, Expertise, Intimidate, Investigate, Mischief, Parley, Stealth, Tactics, Vigilance
   Skill Points: 8 + Guile modifier per level
   Morale: 6 + Determination modifier per level
   Starting proficiencies: 3 + Precision modifier

   Very, Very Sneaky: At Level 1 your Athletics and Stealth are flawless.
   (Flawless. Each time you fail a check with a flawless skill and don’t suffer an error, you still succeed as long as the check DC (or your opponent’s check result) is equal to or less than your Class Level + 20. If several grades of success are possible, you achieve only the lowest possible positive result.
   If you gain the same flawless skill from two or more classes, add together your Class Level in all of those classes when determining the minimum result.)

   Uncanny Dodge I: Attribute bonus to defense
   Bag of Tricks – Bloody Mess: Precision modifier
   Bag of Tricks – Expert (was Expertise): You become an expert with 1 Burglar Class Skill.
   (Expert. Taking 10 with this skill doesn’t take twice as long and taking 20 takes only 10 times as long.)
   Bag of Tricks – Slippery: Acrobatics in place of Focus
   Bag of Tricks – Stick Close and Don’t Make a Sound: Stealth check
   I’ll Cut You!: Precision modifier

Captain
   Favored Attributes: Guile, Awareness, Determination
   Class Skills: Competition, Expertise, Focus, Intimidate, Parley, Profession, Sense Motive, Survival, Tactics, Vigilance
   Skill Points: 6 + Guile modifier per level
   Morale: 9 + Determination modifier per level
   Starting proficiencies: 3 + Precision modifier

   Take Command: Competition checks to ride, Expertise checks to maneuver, Profession checks to heal or repair
   Watchful (was Allure): At Levels 5, 9, 13, and 17, your Awareness score rises by 1.

Courtier
   Favored Attributes: Guile & Grace
   Class Skills: Acting, Deception, Focus, Impress, Intimidate, Investigate, Mischief, Parley, Sense Motive, Vigilance
   Skill Points: 6 + Guile modifier per level
   Morale: 9 + Determination modifier per level
   Starting proficiencies: 3 + Precision modifier

   With a Word: At Level 1 you gain Flawless Impress and Parley.
   (Flawless. Each time you fail a check with a flawless skill and don’t suffer an error, you still succeed as long as the check DC (or your opponent’s check result) is equal to or less than your Class Level + 20. If several grades of success are possible, you achieve only the lowest possible positive result.
   If you gain the same flawless skill from two or more classes, add together your Class Level in all of those classes when determining the minimum result.)

   Gifts and Favors III: Profession checks
   Eloquence: lower of Grace or Guile
   Power Play – Expert (was Expertise): You become an expert with 1 Courtier Class Skill.
   (Expert. Taking 10 with this skill doesn’t take twice as long and taking 20 takes only 10 times as long.)
   Power Play – Slanderous: Guile modifier
   Master Plan I: Guile modifier (minimum 2)

Explorer
   Favored Attributes: Guile, Determination
   Class Skills: Acrobatics, Acting, Athletics, Expertise, Focus, Investigate, Mischief, Parley, Survival, Vigilance
   Skill Points: 6 + Guile modifier per level
   Morale: 9 + Determination modifier per level
   Starting proficiencies: 4 + Precision modifier

   Tomb Raider: At Level 1, your Athletics and Investigate are flawless.
   (Flawless. Each time you fail a check with a flawless skill and don’t suffer an error, you still succeed as long as the check DC (or your opponent’s check result) is equal to or less than your Class Level + 20. If several grades of success are possible, you achieve only the lowest possible positive result.
   If you gain the same flawless skill from two or more classes, add together your Class Level in all of those classes when determining the minimum result.)

   Uncanny Dodge I: Attribute bonus to defense
   Rugged: Determination
   Lifeline: Morale

Keeper
   Favored Attributes: Precision, Guile
   Class Skills: Acting, Expertise, Focus, Impress, Investigate, Mischief, Parley, Profession, Sense Motive, Survival, Tactics, Vigilance
   Skill Points: 8 + Guile modifier per level
   Morale: 6 + Determination modifier per level
   Starting proficiencies: 2 + Precision modifier

   Man of Reason: At Level 1, your Expertise and Profession are flawless.
   (Flawless. Each time you fail a check with a flawless skill and don’t suffer an error, you still succeed as long as the check DC (or your opponent’s check result) is equal to or less than your Class Level + 20. If several grades of success are possible, you achieve only the lowest possible positive result.
   If you gain the same flawless skill from two or more classes, add together your Class Level in all of those classes when determining the minimum result.)

   Trade Secrets: choose one: Acting, Expertise, Focus, Impress, Investigate, Mischief, Parley, Profession, Sense Motive, Survival, Tactics, Vigilance
   Bright Idea: Awareness-, Determination-, or Guile-based skill check
   The Right Tools – Crafting Recognition: Field
   The Right Tools – Expert (was Expertise): You become an expert with 1 Keeper Class Skill.
   (Expert. Taking 10 with this skill doesn’t take twice as long and taking 20 takes only 10 times as long.)
   Perfectionist (was Brilliant): At Levels 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18, your Precision score rises by 1.
   Instant Solution: Precision-based

Lancer
   Favored Attributes: Determination & Fitness
   Class Skills: Athletics, Competition, Focus, Impress, Intimidate, Survival, Tactics, Vigilance
   Skill Points: 4 + Guile modifier per level
   Morale: 12 + Determination modifier per level
   Starting proficiencies: 6 + Precision modifier

   Born in the Saddle: At Level 1, your Competition and Intimidate are flawless.
   (Flawless. Each time you fail a check with a flawless skill and don’t suffer an error, you still succeed as long as the check DC (or your opponent’s check result) is equal to or less than your Class Level + 20. If several grades of success are possible, you achieve only the lowest possible positive result.
   If you gain the same flawless skill from two or more classes, add together your Class Level in all of those classes when determining the minimum result.)

   Mettle I-III: maximum Focus rank
   Master Rider: Pursuit check
  
Mage
   Requirements: Sorcery campaign quality
   Favored Attributes: Grace, Guile, Precision
   Caster: Each level in this class increases your Casting Level by 1.
   Class Skills: Deception, Expertise, Focus, Impress, Intimidate, Investigate, Parley, Profession, Sense Motive, Survival, Vigilance
   Skill Points: 8 + Guile modifier per level
   Morale: 6 + Determination modifier per level
   Starting proficiencies: 2 + Precision modifier

   Arcane Might: highest of your Grace, Guile, or Precision
  
Priest
   Requirements: Miracles campaign quality, Alignment
   Favored Attributes: Determination
   Caster: Each level in this class increases your Casting Level by 1.
   Class Skills: Focus, Impress, Intimidate, Profession, Sense Motive, Vigilance, Alignment Skills
   Skill Points: 6 + Guile modifier per level
   Morale: 9 + Determination modifier per level
   Starting proficiencies: 4 + Precision modifier

   Masks of God - Perceptive: Awareness
   Masks of God - Rebuke: Focus
   Saved! I-II: Determination

Sage
   Favored Attributes: Any
   Class Skills: Competition, Expertise, Investigate, Mischief, Parley, Profession, Sense Motive, Survival, Tactics, Vigilance
   Skill Points: 6 + Guile modifier per level
   Morale: 9 + Determination modifier per level
   Starting proficiencies: 4 + Precision modifier

   Take Heart: Morale

Scout
   Favored Attributes: Precision, Determination
   Class Skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Competition, Expertise, Focus, Profession, Stealth, Survival, Tactics, Vigilance
   Skill Points: 6 + Guile modifier per level
   Morale: 9 + Determination modifier per level
   Starting proficiencies: 4 + Precision modifier

   Stalker: At Level 1, your Survival and Tactics are flawless.
   (Flawless. Each time you fail a check with a flawless skill and don’t suffer an error, you still succeed as long as the check DC (or your opponent’s check result) is equal to or less than your Class Level + 20. If several grades of success are possible, you achieve only the lowest possible positive result.
   If you gain the same flawless skill from two or more classes, add together your Class Level in all of those classes when determining the minimum result.)

   Huntsman – Expert (was Expertise): You become an expert with 1 Scout Class Skill.
   (Expert. Taking 10 with this skill doesn’t take twice as long and taking 20 takes only 10 times as long.)

Soldier
   Favored Attributes: Fitness, Precision, Determination (not always in that order)
   Class Skills: Athletics, Competition, Focus, Intimidate, Profession, Survival, Tactics, Vigilance
   Skill Points: 4 + Guile modifier per level
   Morale: 12 + Determination modifier per level
   Starting proficiencies: 6 + Precision modifier

   Weapon Specialist – Master Weaponsmith: Ranks in Profession
   One in a Million: Determination- or Fitness-based skill check
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 02:43:08 AM by Morgenstern » Logged

At your own pace: Do. It. Now.
How about some pie? - Heroes of the Expanse
Morgenstern
Control
******
Posts: 5206



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2012, 02:07:54 AM »

Reserved.
Logged

At your own pace: Do. It. Now.
How about some pie? - Heroes of the Expanse
Blankbeard
Handler
*****
Posts: 781



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2012, 02:31:16 AM »

I wish to register my approval of this and hope to intelligently comment on it soon.
Logged
Sletchman
Control
******
Posts: 4108


Gentleman Scholar.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2012, 02:45:41 AM »

I wish to register my approval of this and hope to intelligently comment on it soon.

Ditto.  I think it's great conceptually, but it might take me a little while to digest it fully and comment (though likely not as intelligently as Blankbeard will).

The only thing that bothers me is how vastly Expertise outweighs the other skills (it is very literally, and obviously, like 3 skills combined into 1).  Best case scenario that I can imagine has the players requiring certain feats / class abilities to get more focuses to fill a fairly simple concept (something that just doesn't sit well with me).  What covers Escape (slipping bonds, picking your cuffs)?  On the same lines I guess, what covers picking any lock?  Filching / Sleight of Hand (stealing, specifically)?
Logged
spinningdice
Control
******
Posts: 1455


The power of the Dice compels you!


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2012, 03:19:24 AM »

On the other hand, Expertise is both a focus skill (requiring a bit of extra investment) and most of the checks are likely to be irrelevant to the a standard campaign.
I mean, I pick crafting skills in D&D and the ilk all the time and rarely (if ever) get any use out of them.
Logged
Morgenstern
Control
******
Posts: 5206



View Profile
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2012, 03:30:45 AM »

On the other hand, Expertise is both a focus skill (requiring a bit of extra investment) and most of the checks are likely to be irrelevant to the a standard campaign.
I mean, I pick crafting skills in D&D and the ilk all the time and rarely (if ever) get any use out of them.

Thats kinda the heart of the issue. Expertise (aka Crafting) has a lot of checks, but they're mostly fiddly mechanical bits under the umbrella concept of do stuff with 1 type of gear. Each focus is "One type of gear" in most cases. That's part of why I saw Medicine folding into it - beyond some limited field first aid, medical procedures are intensely tool-dependant.

Making it a single focus skill lets the focuses list adapt to the needs of the setting without spawning out a heap of near identical skills. It also avoids nasty skill point taxation on multi-competent characters (which is where heroic skill archetypes tend to migrate). I'm mostly looking towards adaptibity with modern/futuristic settings where I'd like to be able to include/disable a variety of technologies through the allowed focuses list. It also provides a clean "dumping ground" for new checks as they are required by a single new focus.

I also have to point out that the checks for Build or Improve Object, Counterfeit, Improvise, Repair, Breed Animal, and Train Animal are ultimately all the SAME CHECK: turn time and money into a piece of gear. Sometimes starting with a partially assembled item (young animal, item in need of repair). And by that logic Disassemble is the same check running the other direction - turn gear into parts/money. While it looks formidable on paper its not really that dramatic in play. There is virtually nothing the skill can do that a stack of silver coins can't do as well and likely faster until you are really, really good at it (and not always then). If that proposition gets turbo-charged just a little... well, I'm not adverse Cool.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 03:45:34 AM by Morgenstern » Logged

At your own pace: Do. It. Now.
How about some pie? - Heroes of the Expanse
Morgenstern
Control
******
Posts: 5206



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2012, 03:36:00 AM »

Ditto.  I think it's great conceptually, but it might take me a little while to digest it fully and comment (though likely not as intelligently as Blankbeard will).

And I have to extend my thanks for your insisting a skill checks list was needed. Not only was it needed for other folks to understand my blythe assumptions, but building said list helped me track down my own concerns (and oversights) which let me fix a few things that were nagging at the back of my head but not clear to me.

Quote
What covers Escape (slipping bonds, picking your cuffs)?

I'm kind aleaning twards Sabotage as an off the (hand)cuff response but I'll double check what it is inthe normal array before commenting.

Quote
On the same lines I guess, what covers picking any lock?
Same check as in the standard array - disable. Part of sabotage atm.

Quote
Filching / Sleight of Hand (stealing, specifically)?
Same check as in the standard array - conceal action. Part of Deception atm. Conceal action is actually a profoundly powerful check for all that it looks pretty innocuous on paper.
Logged

At your own pace: Do. It. Now.
How about some pie? - Heroes of the Expanse
Mister Andersen
Control
******
Posts: 10682


I'm leaving for a destination I still don't know


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2012, 04:30:33 AM »

What covers Escape (slipping bonds, picking your cuffs)?

I'm kind aleaning twards Sabotage as an off the (hand)cuff response but I'll double check what it is inthe normal array before commenting.

Strikes me that slipping bonds could be an Acrobatics check as it's as much or more about flexibility as anything else, and an escape specialist would very likely have the skill anyway

Quote
Quote
On the same lines I guess, what covers picking any lock?
Same check as in the standard array - disable. Part of sabotage atm.

As mentioned in Alex's thread, I really dislike the general  ability to disable something being anywhere but Expertise; the ability to break anything and everything dispite having no idea how it otherwise works is definitely something that should belong in a feat. Sabotage really should limit itself to circumventing/hotwiring locking devices.
Logged

Blankbeard
Handler
*****
Posts: 781



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2012, 05:05:38 AM »

The new attribute names:  Thumbs up.  They lack the accumulation of 40 years of expectations while still being evocative.

Random comments follow

What's the importance of the key skill?

Eliminating the active passive distinction is a shame but it seems like it wasn't very popular with the player base or at least that no one seemed to get it.

Blend:  What does it do now?  Does it just duplicate the Hide check?  Associating it with Grace makes me think it could use a crowd handling check.  Sort of a social tumble Smiley but based on working through a crowd. 

Disguise doesn't seem to fit into Grace as well as it should.  Then again, if you called it Acting it would fit perfectly....  So I think Grace based skills need a couple new checks to make them feel right but that's for down the road.

Counterfeit could live in Deception fairly easily.  Calm could live in Focus to make it a bit more attractive. 

I think Escape should generally be an Acrobatics check (Bursting bonds is Athletics though)

Focus skills in general seem troublesome.  Do you see any negative ramifications (other than effects on Knowledge checks) of using interests instead of foci?  Then again, there may not be any real positives to that.
Logged
spinningdice
Control
******
Posts: 1455


The power of the Dice compels you!


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2012, 05:15:37 AM »

You could make disable checks capped without the appropriate Expertise Focus?

If we have a skill named 'Focus', it could lead to table confusion with focus skills, one or the other need renaming (sadly my go-to names of Expertise or Speciality are already taken too).

Blend could probably be folded into Disguise or Deception without any conceptual difficulty.

Escape is difficult as you can burst bonds, slip out or exploit a mechanical weakness, probably best being Acrobatics by default with a sidebar on using other skills.
Logged
Mister Andersen
Control
******
Posts: 10682


I'm leaving for a destination I still don't know


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2012, 05:50:12 AM »

Blend as a social "Look like you own the place / Fly casual" skill should be distinct from a purely physical "they won't see me behind this" skill. Because even Marcus Brody could hide.
Logged

Sletchman
Control
******
Posts: 4108


Gentleman Scholar.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2012, 07:23:45 AM »

On the other hand, Expertise is both a focus skill (requiring a bit of extra investment) and most of the checks are likely to be irrelevant to the a standard campaign.
I mean, I pick crafting skills in D&D and the ilk all the time and rarely (if ever) get any use out of them.

Thats kinda the heart of the issue. Expertise (aka Crafting) has a lot of checks, but they're mostly fiddly mechanical bits under the umbrella concept of do stuff with 1 type of gear. Each focus is "One type of gear" in most cases. That's part of why I saw Medicine folding into it - beyond some limited field first aid, medical procedures are intensely tool-dependant.

That's also the problem - you want to have all the current game's Medicine uses covered?  Hopefully you're playing a 9th level game, because that's the requirements.  So either you have to write a crappy exceptionally bland feat to bend the focus skill rules into line, or say "Oh, you want the old Medicine skill?  Tough titties friendo."  Neither of those appeal to me at all.

Same will apply to Computers - you need Building, Programming and Hacking at a bare minimum, with Improvise / Repair being likely candidates too.  Well that's a 5th to 13th level concept right there.  Which is odd considering the concept is "Sletchman's 15 year old cousin".

Don't take this as an attack on the system - Expertise is quite literally my only beef with it after a couple quick readings.

Quote
I also have to point out that the checks for Build or Improve Object, Counterfeit, Improvise, Repair, Breed Animal, and Train Animal are ultimately all the SAME CHECK: turn time and money into a piece of gear. Sometimes starting with a partially assembled item (young animal, item in need of repair).

So downtime checks then, yes?  Why not just make them like Knowledge (SC knowledge, that is)?  Level + [Attribute] + Misc.  Check results on a chart and the rest is fluff - if you use the gold / rep accumulated to buy a horse then you fluff it as animal training and get a synergy from Survival (or whatever).  Because if the entire point is to turn downtime into money (and buy gear with that money for Craft) then why bother having a skill dedicated to it?  If the game is going to have regular downtime then those checks are essential and if not they are a waste of resources.  It's also a bit silly to have a skill check that is just "you get coin" when the rest are useful and have dramatic implications.

That would also alleviate a some of the problem with Expertise, because over 1/2 those checks are straight up gone.
Logged
Blankbeard
Handler
*****
Posts: 781



View Profile
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2012, 07:55:18 AM »

Blend as a social "Look like you own the place / Fly casual" skill should be distinct from a purely physical "they won't see me behind this" skill. Because even Marcus Brody could hide.

But at this point, Blend is just Stealth that doesn't work unless people are around.  That's not strong enough to be a skill of its own.  It needs something else to be its own skill.

Sletchman:  I figured the foci would be setting important items, not individual checks.  So one focus would be computers, another doctor.  Doctor would cover all of the medical checks, while computers would let you build repair and whatever other checks applied.
Logged
Morgenstern
Control
******
Posts: 5206



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2012, 10:39:47 AM »

That's also the problem - you want to have all the current game's Medicine uses covered?  Hopefully you're playing a 9th level game, because that's the requirements.

??

What would be wrong about taking ranks in Expertise and making your first focus "medicine"? That would in my mind enable all the pertinent checks that are in the Medicine skill now and should be workable at level 1?

(mind you I'm looking to extract some of the medicine checks - move first aid into the combat actions, and the suggestion of pulling calm out of there is resonating for me big time...)

Quote
Same will apply to Computers - you need Building, Programming and Hacking at a bare minimum, with Improvise / Repair being likely candidates too.  Well that's a 5th to 13th level concept right there.  Which is odd considering the concept is "Sletchman's 15 year old cousin".

I'm thinking the focuses "hardware" and "software" pretty much enable all the checks you are thinking of for real world computer expertise. I know enough folks who are sharp at one and not the other to feel that two focuses to manage the whole range is not too much to ask. Again, largely achieveable at level 1.

Quote
Don't take this as an attack on the system - Expertise is quite literally my only beef with it after a couple quick readings.

Not at all. I'm just unclear where the idea that one focus would do so little is coming from. The idea is one focus makes you N ranks competent with everything involved with that focus. If you've got computer hardware, you can build it, repair it dismantle it etc.

Quote
I also have to point out that the checks for Build or Improve Object, Counterfeit, Improvise, Repair, Breed Animal, and Train Animal are ultimately all the SAME CHECK: turn time and money into a piece of gear. Sometimes starting with a partially assembled item (young animal, item in need of repair).

Quote
Because if the entire point is to turn downtime into money (and buy gear with that money for Craft) then why bother having a skill dedicated to it?  If the game is going to have regular downtime then those checks are essential and if not they are a waste of resources.  It's also a bit silly to have a skill check that is just "you get coin" when the rest are useful and have dramatic implications.

That would also alleviate a some of the problem with Expertise, because over 1/2 those checks are straight up gone.

Some may offer flavor/detail worth keeping but on the whole I agree.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 10:43:26 AM by Morgenstern » Logged

At your own pace: Do. It. Now.
How about some pie? - Heroes of the Expanse
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 12 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!