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Author Topic: Golden Oldies: Classic Film & TV thread  (Read 804 times)
Mister Andersen
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« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2014, 11:32:34 AM »

That's more the books I think. The classic movie is Glinda killing off her rivals, ushering out the usurper, then making sure Dorothy leaves sans magic shoes -- the cat appearing at just the right time to cause Dorothy to leave the balloon just as it launches was too much of a coincidence to be one.
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Valentina
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« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2014, 03:50:00 PM »

Reminds me of the recent wave of anti-Lincoln historical revisionism.
"The Civil War wasn't about slavery at all! Lincoln was a tyrant! Grant was a drunk! The North couldn't tolerate Southern Independence!"
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"Cui bono?" -Lucius Cassius Longinus Ravilla, 127 BCE.

"Hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht anders" -Martin Luthor, 1483-1546.
MilitiaJim
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« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2014, 06:49:29 PM »

Assuming for the moment that the southern indepence folks have a valid point:  Sleazy that would make Tamney Hall blush went into the "votes" for secession; that were to protect slavery as practiced in the antibellum south.  (Which was vastly worse than Greco-Roman slavery and even Ottoman Janissary slavery.)
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"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)
Valentina
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« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2014, 07:09:08 PM »

Sure, nobody's hands were clean.
Right up until the tide turned everyone who didn't buy slaves at least trafficked in them. Maryland was the last northern state to cut ties with the practice, and that wasn't until after the Civil War had ended. Their profits in shipping, though not owning, slaves was just that lucrative.

I was listening to a lecture that laid blame with Jefferson; that he'd been too much of a pessimist to push for anti-slavery legislation in the western expansion. That led to the "house divided", and onward to tragedy, waste, and the still lingering discontent.

That said, however stuffed as the boxes might have been there wasn't a shortage of troops, supplies, or officers willing to back that choice. If the fix was in, it was a popular fix all same.

I'm reading a book called "American Theocracy; The Peril And Politics of Radical Religion, Oil, and Borrowed Money In The 21st Century" that puts forth no small volume of data to support the theory that there was a previous actual pre-Declaration religious split roughly along Northern and Southern lines that laid the groundwork for some later conflict. That the Civil War's actual roots are religious first, making the other cultural and political divisions knock-off effects of the original divide which itself began in England, and which coincided roughly with urban/rural populations and denominations.

Edit: any cheap shots at Lincoln's character though are unwarranted. The man was POTUS; was his "logical" choice to let the US be torn apart and hope there wasn't constant warfare between them? Or that England, France, Mexico, or whoever wouldn't have gotten about gobbling up the easier to chew and swallow pieces?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 07:12:07 PM by Valentina » Logged

"Cui bono?" -Lucius Cassius Longinus Ravilla, 127 BCE.

"Hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht anders" -Martin Luthor, 1483-1546.
Krensky
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« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2014, 07:35:39 PM »

In other news... Grant was a drunk. Smiley
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Valentina
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« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2014, 08:22:27 PM »

In other news... Grant was a drunk. Smiley

Ok, that's true.
Supposedly it was influenced by his tremendous sorrow at being separated from his family my his role in the war, but there's no one contesting that it was his enduring personal failing.
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"Cui bono?" -Lucius Cassius Longinus Ravilla, 127 BCE.

"Hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht anders" -Martin Luthor, 1483-1546.
ludomastro
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« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2014, 09:27:48 PM »

Sure, nobody's hands were clean.
Truth.

Quote
Edit: any cheap shots at Lincoln's character though are unwarranted. The man was POTUS; was his "logical" choice to let the US be torn apart and hope there wasn't constant warfare between them? Or that England, France, Mexico, or whoever wouldn't have gotten about gobbling up the easier to chew and swallow pieces?
Lincoln was out to preserve the Union at all costs.  He is on record as writing, "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."  That's not a pretty thought, no matter how you slice it.  To have upheld that States were sovereign, was to give up on the Union.  To crush the States was to ignore the 10th Amendment.  No way to win that one.  Lincoln chose the Union.

Hopefully we can learn from history and not make so many stupid mistakes in the future.
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Valentina
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« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2014, 10:25:12 PM »

Sure, nobody's hands were clean.
Truth.

Quote
Edit: any cheap shots at Lincoln's character though are unwarranted. The man was POTUS; was his "logical" choice to let the US be torn apart and hope there wasn't constant warfare between them? Or that England, France, Mexico, or whoever wouldn't have gotten about gobbling up the easier to chew and swallow pieces?
Lincoln was out to preserve the Union at all costs.  He is on record as writing, "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."  That's not a pretty thought, no matter how you slice it.  To have upheld that States were sovereign, was to give up on the Union.  To crush the States was to ignore the 10th Amendment.  No way to win that one.  Lincoln chose the Union.

Hopefully we can learn from history and not make so many stupid mistakes in the future.

Word is bond, sir.
Sadly I'm pretty sure we'll make them again before too awful long. Probably not slaves again, not so intentionally, but another Civil War is a possibility.
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"Cui bono?" -Lucius Cassius Longinus Ravilla, 127 BCE.

"Hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht anders" -Martin Luthor, 1483-1546.
MilitiaJim
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« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2014, 11:29:32 PM »

That said, however stuffed as the boxes might have been there wasn't a shortage of troops, supplies, or officers willing to back that choice. If the fix was in, it was a popular fix all same.
There were constant shortages of troops and supplies in the south.  All they really had going for them were their generals.
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"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)
Krensky
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« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2014, 11:43:30 PM »

That said, however stuffed as the boxes might have been there wasn't a shortage of troops, supplies, or officers willing to back that choice. If the fix was in, it was a popular fix all same.
There were constant shortages of troops and supplies in the south.  All they really had going for them were their generals.

Who weren't necessarily all that they were cracked up to be once it became obvious that the Napoleonic era was over. Lee was brilliant, but the method of war he knew was already made obsolete. First by the Miniť ball, then by the Henry and Spencer rifles.
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2014, 12:19:55 AM »

Sadly I'm pretty sure we'll make them again before too awful long. Probably not slaves again, not so intentionally, but another Civil War is a possibility.

I'm honestly surprised shooting hasn't start-- Oh wait, it has. Let me ammend that to I'm honestly surprised shooting back hasn't started yet, given the race and class war the conservatives and law enforcement clearly seem to be waging at the moment.

America would be a better place if voting was an irrevocable civic responsibility and not a privilege that it seems can be taken away by a simple stroke of some bureacratic pen.
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Valentina
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« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2014, 12:34:35 AM »

That said, however stuffed as the boxes might have been there wasn't a shortage of troops, supplies, or officers willing to back that choice. If the fix was in, it was a popular fix all same.
There were constant shortages of troops and supplies in the south.  All they really had going for them were their generals.

Enough to be part of ~635,000 dead and ~400,000 wounded.
I wouldn't deny for a second that resources are critical, but there was clearly will enough to fight and keep fighting.
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"Cui bono?" -Lucius Cassius Longinus Ravilla, 127 BCE.

"Hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht anders" -Martin Luthor, 1483-1546.
Mister Andersen
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« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2014, 08:28:07 AM »

We've been watching the back to the future trilogy, and the saying that the middle film in such things tends to be the weakest holds true here. Mostly because most of the middle section of the film in the alternate 1985 could have been rendered moot simply by looking at the "last time visited" section of the time circuit display, which would at least have instantly revealed the time they needed to get to in order to resolve the paradox.

But that aside this trilogy is just so much damn fun even though or perhaps especially because you know what's about to happen, with effects that were at the time cutting edge and even today hold up pretty well. And even nigh 30 years later, that deLorean remains one hell of a sweet ride, landspeed soundenhancement and all..
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