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Author Topic: Riders of Rohan  (Read 914 times)
Mister Andersen
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« on: September 23, 2012, 08:33:49 PM »

So, the trailer for The Hobbit got me rewatching the LotR trilogy, and it struck me that the elvish horse nation feats are generally a good match for the Rohirrim. Seriously, you'd even straight out keep the name.

Thing is, I've always thought they weren't really very good as species feats. Looking at their benefits, there's nothing in them that depends on or modifies your physical nature. Really, they're either a Gear chain -- because everything except the resistance is linked to gear -- or, at a stretch, Style.

Given that I also feel the whole electrical damage thing feels oddly bolted on, I think there's room to reinvent them as Style feats
Horse Nation
The riders of your culture come together as a roaring torrent, sweeping all before them.
   Prerequisites: Any non-beast, Strength 13+, Wisdom 13+
   Benefit: You gain the Ride (Riding Mounts) focus and a 20% discount when purchasing mounts and mount-related gear (if you already possess a discount with these purchases, it increases by 5%). Also, while mounted, your melee attacks gain the massive quality, you and your mount are considered to share a common species for all your character options that target that value, and you both benefit from the improved stability quality (see Fantasy Craft, page 234).

Horse Noble
Elevated above your foes, when you ride forth they tremble as though the land itself were rising up to smite them.
   Prerequisites: Horse Nation
   Benefit: Any mounts you purchase or personally gain as a Prize gain the exceptional specimen upgrade at no cost (see Fantasy Craft, page 169). Also, while mounted and taking a Run action that will end adjacent to 1 special character or standard mob, you may force them to make a Morale check with a DC equal to your starting action dice x5.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 05:13:32 AM by Mister Andersen » Logged

Sletchman
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« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2012, 09:40:31 PM »

I always figured that Horse Nation's Electricity thing was referencing the effect of storms out on plains (which are extremely cool, if you've had the chance to see one).

I'd just clarify Horse Nation's common species - is it the mounts species, or yours, that you share for options that target the value?  Is it static, or can you choose on a spell by spell basis?  Can I ignore Charm Person because I'm an Animal (horse), but also benefit from a folk only boost because we're totally both Human?

Cool feats, I'd just clarify that one little thing.  I'd still put these in Species feats - they represent shared cultural lessons and development, physical changes or not.  That's just my personal opinion about category though, not a problem with the feats themselves.
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2012, 10:38:11 PM »

God but I hope that species restriction on the Hold spells gets thrown out the window come Spellbound. That's something that belongs as a sub-quality of Sorcery -- ooh, let's call it Blood Magic -- not as a core aspect of it.

Well, the intent of the same species line is primarily aimed at things such as the Origin benefits Stand Together -- which is 2 design points -- because a mixed party so often renders those minimum species number abilities useless. Allowing a Horse National to count their mount towards that threshold strikes me as a hugely and appropriately flavoursome thing.

I'm fairly certain that spell effects don't count as a character option, which is why I was also thinking that if you're doing something cool like riding the alpha at the head of a herd or even if all your other-species pals are riding the same sort of mount as you, you should be able to benefit from that.
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« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2012, 04:51:45 AM »

God but I hope that species restriction on the Hold spells gets thrown out the window come Spellbound. That's something that belongs as a sub-quality of Sorcery -- ooh, let's call it Blood Magic -- not as a core aspect of it.

Agreed.  I liked your suggestion a (fairly long) while ago that it be based on studies.

Quote
I'm fairly certain that spell effects don't count as a character option, which is why I was also thinking that if you're doing something cool like riding the alpha at the head of a herd or even if all your other-species pals are riding the same sort of mount as you, you should be able to benefit from that.

I could see it argued that the spells you choose are character options, as is spellcasting itself.  The simplest solution might be "...for all your character options..." - it'll work with all your example scenarios, and remove any confusion all in one fell swoop.  I don't think anything would be lost, either.
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2012, 05:15:06 AM »

So amended.
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Big_Jim
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« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2012, 04:51:53 PM »


I'd note that the feat waives/ignores the Massive quality's need for 15+ Str. Or have it waive that for Massive while mounted instead, allowing those with this feat to always be able to use a lance.

Due to the mounted pair rules for Fantasy Craft, granting the horse you're riding the human species doesn't really help with Stand Together. While mounted, you are a composite character. So he's not another character, nor is he really "adjacent" to you. It might work if you have abilities call upon the mount's species for those abilities. Such as

Quote
While mounted, your character options that target your species may use your mount's species also.

That allows everybody riding horses to Stand Together, regardless of being human, elf, etc.

Granting both halves of the pair Improved Stability does nothing here. First off, IS is given to most quadrupeds as a matter of course, and doesn't stack. And the rider can't benefit form IS due to IS's text: ...so long as hes standing firmly on the ground and not climbing, flying, or riding. If you want to make sure the pair benefits from IS (just in case the mount isn't a horse) it should read something like:

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...and your mounted pair benefits from the improved stability quality (see Fantasy Craft, page 234), if you didn't already.
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2012, 09:03:45 PM »

I'd note that the feat waives/ignores the Massive quality's need for 15+ Str. Or have it waive that for Massive while mounted instead, allowing those with this feat to always be able to use a lance.

I recalled at least one other benefit that grants massive in order to send opponents sprawling and implicitly doesn't hit the beneficiary with the strength threshold. Checking it out though, it was a trick that ignored the size difference for applying the knockdown benefit.

Waiving the strength requirement is certainly interesting...

Quote
Due to the mounted pair rules for Fantasy Craft, granting the horse you're riding the human species doesn't really help with Stand Together. While mounted, you are a composite character. So he's not another character, nor is he really "adjacent" to you. It might work if you have abilities call upon the mount's species for those abilities. Such as

Quote
While mounted, your character options that target your species may use your mount's species also.

That allows everybody riding horses to Stand Together, regardless of being human, elf, etc.

That's a misreading of the mounted combat rules. All they cover is how you and your mount act as a unit in combat. Andre the Giant being ridden into battle by Peter Dinklage might be a single unit, but they're both going to provide the numbers for their buddy Patrick Stewart the vanguard

Quote
Granting both halves of the pair Improved Stability does nothing here. First off, IS is given to most quadrupeds as a matter of course, and doesn't stack. And the rider can't benefit form IS due to IS's text: ...so long as hes standing firmly on the ground and not climbing, flying, or riding. If you want to make sure the pair benefits from IS (just in case the mount isn't a horse) it should read something like:

Quote
...and your mounted pair benefits from the improved stability quality (see Fantasy Craft, page 234), if you didn't already.
[/quote]
The improved stability and its wording actually comes from the original feats, so because as with Turning and constructs, specific incidents trump general rules, I think we're meant to interpret it as conveying that you're such a good rider it's actually a lot harder to knock you out of your saddle than it would be an ordinary sort
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« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2012, 07:53:05 PM »

I'd note that the feat waives/ignores the Massive quality's need for 15+ Str. Or have it waive that for Massive while mounted instead, allowing those with this feat to always be able to use a lance.

I recalled at least one other benefit that grants massive in order to send opponents sprawling and implicitly doesn't hit the beneficiary with the strength threshold. Checking it out though, it was a trick that ignored the size difference for applying the knockdown benefit.

Waiving the strength requirement is certainly interesting...

I like it a lot more than making all your attacks massive, as I think it's more utilitarian - that and I want Lance use to be more prevalent.

Quote
Due to the mounted pair rules for Fantasy Craft, granting the horse you're riding the human species doesn't really help with Stand Together. While mounted, you are a composite character. So he's not another character, nor is he really "adjacent" to you. It might work if you have abilities call upon the mount's species for those abilities. Such as

Quote
While mounted, your character options that target your species may use your mount's species also.

That allows everybody riding horses to Stand Together, regardless of being human, elf, etc.

That's a misreading of the mounted combat rules. All they cover is how you and your mount act as a unit in combat. Andre the Giant being ridden into battle by Peter Dinklage might be a single unit, but they're both going to provide the numbers for their buddy Patrick Stewart the vanguard.

As covered in Morg's answers/statments in these threads:
http://www.crafty-games.com/forum/index.php?topic=6282.msg110933#msg110933
The composite character has other tricks up it's collective sleeves. They may count for others, but I disagree with them counting for each other.

Quote
Granting both halves of the pair Improved Stability does nothing here. First off, IS is given to most quadrupeds as a matter of course, and doesn't stack. And the rider can't benefit form IS due to IS's text: ...so long as hes standing firmly on the ground and not climbing, flying, or riding. If you want to make sure the pair benefits from IS (just in case the mount isn't a horse) it should read something like:

Quote
...and your mounted pair benefits from the improved stability quality (see Fantasy Craft, page 234), if you didn't already.
The improved stability and its wording actually comes from the original feats, so because as with Turning and constructs, specific incidents trump general rules, I think we're meant to interpret it as conveying that you're such a good rider it's actually a lot harder to knock you out of your saddle than it would be an ordinary sort

I believe the wording of the original feat (which didn't have the qualifier 'both' in it) refers to the composite character created by mounting up, but doesn't actually give out the benefits twice.
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2012, 08:58:18 PM »

As covered in Morg's answers/statments in these threads:
http://www.crafty-games.com/forum/index.php?topic=6282.msg110933#msg110933
The composite character has other tricks up it's collective sleeves. They may count for others, but I disagree with them counting for each other.

There's absolutely nothing in that rather ambiguous statement of Scott's to support your take that a mounted charactr comprised of two individuals of the same species would remove the effect of one of them from a ability such as stand together.
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Big_Jim
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« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2012, 10:39:29 PM »

No, I referenced that to show that it's more than just compositing the characters for combat - character options composite and cross over too. That's my point.

and as to your question here: http://www.crafty-games.com/forum/index.php?topic=3946.msg118183#msg118183

My point is Peter's Stand Together is the one that gets boned, really. Not Patrick's. Once Peter saddles up on Andre, they aren't adjacent - they're part of a composite character.
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