Author Topic: Master class design question  (Read 3723 times)

Mister Andersen

  • Control
  • ******
  • Posts: 12221
  • I'm leaving for a destination I still don't know
    • View Profile
Master class design question
« on: September 13, 2012, 03:04:19 PM »
Looking over the classes in the AC and based on the Dragon Lord I think you need 7 build points worth of prereqs.

   Intimidate 6+: 2 pts
   Con 15+: 2 pts
   Draconic Heritage: 2 pts
   Proficiency (Unarmed): 1 pt

Which leaves me with a problem, as hat would seem to indicate

   Panache 4+ = Heroic Renown 1+ = Noble Renown 3+ = 1 pt


The only way that makes sense is if MCs need 8 build points, and

   Level 1 only feat = 3 pts (instead of 2 for expert classes as per Force of Nature)
   Panache 4+ = 2 pts
   Renown 3+ = 2 pts
   Renown 1+ = 1 pt
   Miracles = 1 pt (instead of 0 for base and expert classes as per Priest, Monk, and Force of Nature)

Morgenstern

  • Control
  • ******
  • Posts: 6495
    • View Profile
Re: Master class design question
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2012, 07:30:06 PM »
As master classes have a minimum career level of 10, 6 ranks in a skill is pretty trivial for them. see if treating that as a 1 point requirement cleans up your math.
At your own pace: Do. It. Now.
How about some pie? - Heroes of the Expanse

Mister Andersen

  • Control
  • ******
  • Posts: 12221
  • I'm leaving for a destination I still don't know
    • View Profile
Re: Master class design question
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2012, 08:35:42 PM »
Not really, as the Spirit Singer is still asking for only 4+ ranks in a skill while others are asking for 10+, and it still doesn't account for the difference in Renown ranks coming to what seems to be the same build point cost.

Blankbeard

  • Handler
  • *****
  • Posts: 781
    • View Profile
Re: Master class design question
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2012, 10:07:06 PM »
I had never actually realized there was a pattern to this but here's what I came up with.  I haven't checked to see if this works with any of the classes posted on the forum.

Expert classes have 5 points of prerequisites while Master classes have 7 points.  All Most path using classes must feature an Alignment as one of the requirements.  

-1 point traits
Overlapping prerequisites
Spoiler: Explanation • show
When you require a trait that is also a prerequisite of another trait (ex. The regent's required feats themselves require 1 rank of noble Renown and Cha 13+.  Thus instead of getting 4 points for
Cha 15+ and Noble Renown 3+, the Regent is credited for only 3).


0pt traits
a specific campaign quality

1pt traits
ability 13+
skill 4+ ranks
Any feat from a specific tree
Alignment
a specific interest or proficiency
specific Renown 1+ ranks
5 spells from 2 specific schools
Panache 4+
BAB 3+

2pt traits
ability 15+
skill 6+ ranks
A specific feat
specific Renown 3+ ranks

3pt traits (Only present on published master classes)
skill 10+ ranks

Spoiler: Expert class breakdowns • show

Alchemist
[ 0] Sorcery  campaign quality
[2] Crafting 6+ ranks
[1] Medicine 4+ ranks
[2] Alchemy Basics feat

Beastmaster
[2] Ride  6+  ranks
[1]  Survival  4+  ranks
[2]  Animal Partner feat

Edgemaster
[1] Charisma  13+
[2] All-Out  Attack  feat
[2] Wrestling Basics feat

Paladin
[ 0] Miracles  campaign  quality
[1] Alignment
[2] Charisma 15+
[2] Bandage feat

Rune Knight
[ 0] Sorcery   campaign  quality
[1]  Spellcasting  4+ ranks
[2] Resolve 6+ ranks
[2] Favored Gear (any 1 weapon) feat

Swashbuckler
[1] Charisma 13+
[2] Acrobatics 6+ ranks
[2] Fencing Basics feat

Bloodsworn
[1] Notice  4+  ranks  
[2] Lightning Reflexes
[2] The Extra Mile

Deadeye
[1] BAB 3+
[2] Dex 15+
[2] Quick Draw

Force of Nature
[ 0] Miracles  campaign  quality
[1] Constitution 13+
[2] Athletics 6+ ranks
[2] Elemental Heritage

Gallant
[1] Dexterity 13+
[1] Wisdom 13+
[2] Impress 6+ ranks
[1] any 1 Style feat

Monk
[ 0] Miracles  campaign  quality
[2] Wisdom  15+
[2] Martial Arts
[1] Alignment

Monster Slayer
[1] Base  attack  bonus  3+
[2] Shield  Basics  
[2] 2+ Studies (monster species)

Infernalist
[ 0] Sorcery campaign  quality
[1] Intelligence  13+
[1] Intimidate  4+  ranks
[2] Spellcasting  6+  ranks
[1] 5+  spells  from  the Calling and/or Shadow Disciplines

Mist Dancer
[ 0] Sorcery campaign  quality
[2] Prestidigitation 6+  ranks
[1] Spellcasting  4+  ranks
[1] 5+  spells  from  the  Illusion  or Shadow Disciplines
[1] any 1 Covert feat



Spoiler: Master Classes • show

Dragon Lord
[2] Intimidate  6+  ranks
[2] Constitution  15+
[2] Draconic Heritage
[1] Unarmed proficiency

Regent
[2] Cha  15+
[2] Noble Renown 3+
[2] Followers
[2] Hero of the Court
[-1] Overlapping prerequisites

Spirit Singer
[ 0] Miracles campaign  quality
[2] Wisdom 15+
[1] Alignment
[3] Impress 10+ ranks
[1] Heroic Renown 1+

Wind Knight
[1] Panache 4+
[3] Ride 10+ ranks
[1] Survival 4+ ranks
[2] Charging Basics feat


Edit:  Oops.   There has to be one.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 02:29:04 PM by Blankbeard »

Big_Jim

  • Handler
  • *****
  • Posts: 963
  • An integral part of any plan for world domination.
    • View Profile
Re: Master class design question
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2012, 11:37:29 AM »
All path using classes must feature an Alignment as one of the requirements. 

Incorrect. See Morg's Golden Lion http://www.crafty-games.com/forum/index.php?topic=3338.0 for an example.
The rest of this is golden, however. Awesome work!

Deral

  • Handler
  • *****
  • Posts: 600
    • View Profile
Re: Master class design question
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2012, 11:45:02 AM »
All path using classes must feature an Alignment as one of the requirements. 

Incorrect. See Morg's Golden Lion http://www.crafty-games.com/forum/index.php?topic=3338.0 for an example.
The rest of this is golden, however. Awesome work!

Or more appropriately, the Force of Nature- but the point is still there, I think the wording is just off a tad; pretty much anything that gives you your choice of paths, or access to paths granted by your alignment must feature an Alignment as one of the requirements

Blankbeard

  • Handler
  • *****
  • Posts: 781
    • View Profile
Re: Master class design question
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2012, 03:24:30 PM »
Thanks for the error catching.  I'd forgotten that the Force of Nature even used paths.   On a more upbeat note, the Golden Lion has 5 points of requirements while the Ironfang has 7 so I guess this is close enough for use.

Sletchman

  • Control
  • ******
  • Posts: 4112
  • Gentleman Scholar.
    • View Profile
    • The SletchWeb
Re: Master class design question
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2012, 07:54:29 PM »
Great work Blankbeard.  I'd never noticed a pattern like this before (even though all my own classes actually sync up to it anyway - which is a happy coincidence), but once you break it down like that it's almost obvious.

Morgenstern

  • Control
  • ******
  • Posts: 6495
    • View Profile
Re: Master class design question
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2012, 01:26:25 AM »
Incorrect. See Morg's Golden Lion http://www.crafty-games.com/forum/index.php?topic=3338.0 for an example.
The rest of this is golden, however. Awesome work!

Keep in mind there's some careful dancing there: The Path being referenced has no spellcasting steps, and thus does not require classes restricted to it to grant caster level. The class would crash an burn if it had free choice of Paths.

I basically just did a set of 8 "blessings" to flesh out the elven religion in the Sunchaser setting (in homage ot the virtues structure of the Ultima games... Yes, I am an old geek), that lead me to believe there might be a use for classifying a substep of paths - those with no spellcasting - as "Blessings" so they could be utilized as a more interchangable group in non-caster classes.
At your own pace: Do. It. Now.
How about some pie? - Heroes of the Expanse

Morgenstern

  • Control
  • ******
  • Posts: 6495
    • View Profile
Re: Master class design question
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2012, 01:38:28 AM »
Great work Blankbeard.  I'd never noticed a pattern like this before (even though all my own classes actually sync up to it anyway - which is a happy coincidence), but once you break it down like that it's almost obvious.

Indeed, good analysis. I had honestly never realized the suject hadn't come up before. The build point-based pre-req's go all the way back to first edition and likely are pretty stable in their exectuion since the first batch of 4 expert classes in the Shadowforce Archer main guide.... Though it MAY have been formalized shortly there after, as I was a bit rushed at the time :P. Like most elements of class design, the creation of a template went a long way towards making equivelent demands of players seeking to enter one specialized field vs. another. Most of my broader structures have a point-based building template underlying them so that I can evaluate new offerings against exisitng options.
At your own pace: Do. It. Now.
How about some pie? - Heroes of the Expanse

Blankbeard

  • Handler
  • *****
  • Posts: 781
    • View Profile
Re: Master class design question
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2012, 10:59:03 PM »
Thanks!  And purely from a design standpoint, why was a point system instituted?  Were there d20 prestige classes with requirements that were really out of whack?  Just wondering.

Sletchman

  • Control
  • ******
  • Posts: 4112
  • Gentleman Scholar.
    • View Profile
    • The SletchWeb
Re: Master class design question
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2012, 01:14:17 AM »
Thanks!  And purely from a design standpoint, why was a point system instituted?  Were there d20 prestige classes with requirements that were really out of whack?  Just wondering.

Big time.

Best example, that comes to mind:
Invisible Blade (3 feats, 2 skills (7+ for one) and you have to beat someone in a fight) - it's also 5 levels long and not an endgame type thing (like Archmage).  It's basically a Rogue / Fighter melee specialist who requires ranged feats but doesn't build on them (or even use / reference them again past pre-reqs).

Sletchman

  • Control
  • ******
  • Posts: 4112
  • Gentleman Scholar.
    • View Profile
    • The SletchWeb
Re: Master class design question
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2012, 01:35:14 AM »
Oh, there was also a heap of hard to measure things, too:

Vassal of Bahamut required you to kill an Adult Dragon.  Alone.  Not a real problem, but how many gaming groups are gonna let the Paladin go and solo the adventure's capstone boss so that he can enter a prestige class?  Hell, how many Paladins can manage that feat without help at a level that makes the class worth entering (it's 10 levels long and most of the juice is towards the end).  Pretty much had to resort to it being "in your backstory" which means that it may as well not exist.

Stormlord requires you to be struck by natural lightning and survive.  So, considering only about 400 people are struck by lightning each year, you have a pretty slim chance of ever becoming a Stormlord.  Which means players end up standing on a hill in full plate waving a steel rod around in every storm.

Scorpion Lord (or Heritator, maybe?) requires you to be stung by an adult giant scorpion and live.  You end up provoking scorpions while naked just to get in the class.  Sucks if the GM doesn't have them in the area you're currently fighting and you're nearly at a level up.

There's also like 10+ that make you "Do X for Y time".  Examples include spending 10 days buried alive.  Or spend a month on the plane of fire.  In a game with no formalised downtime for you to do that kind of silly stuff.  Both are actual examples, not hyperbole, too.

Worse Mechanical offenders:
Dwarven Defender:  3 (extremely crappy) Feats, BAB 7 and an alignment.  It's 10 levels long, too.  So you gotta be a Fighter.

Magelord: Alignment, 3 skills, 4 Feats, 5th level Spells, Evasion Class Ability, 10, 000 Gold.  It's 10 levels long, too.  Which means you won't see the end pre-epic because you need 9 levels of Wizard and 2 (3?) levels of Rogue.

I think I'll stop there because I could literally go all night.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 01:37:12 AM by Sletchman »

Sletchman

  • Control
  • ******
  • Posts: 4112
  • Gentleman Scholar.
    • View Profile
    • The SletchWeb
Re: Master class design question
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2012, 01:50:24 AM »
I know I said I'd stop, but a friend told me the worst offender of all time: The Ardent Dilettante.

Requirements:
To take 1st level:
- Any skill 8 ranks, 1 rank in any other 5 skills
- Fluff requirement

To take 4th level (if you don't meet these as you take the 4th level you can't progress in the class - same for future requirements):
- 8 ranks in Perform, any other skill 5 ranks, 1 rank in any other 5 skills.
- Proficiency with at least 2 martial weapons
- Ability to cast 1st level arcane or divine spells.

To take 7th level:
- 8 ranks in Perform, any Strength-based skill 5 ranks, any Dexterity-based skill 5 ranks, 1 rank in any other 3 skills.
- Proficiency with at least 4 martial weapons and 1 exotic weapon
- Ability to cast 1st level arcane and divine spells.
- Non-mechanical requirement: Visited 3 other planes.

To take 10th level:
- 8 ranks in Perform, any Strength-based skill 5 ranks, any Dexterity-based skill 5 ranks, any Constitution-based skill 5 ranks, any Intelligence or Wisdom-based skill 5 ranks.
- Proficiency with at least 4 martial weapons and 1 exotic weapon
- Ability to cast 1st level arcane and divine spells.
- Non-Mechanical Requirement: Visited 6 other planes and you have to have died..

Morganti

  • Handler
  • *****
  • Posts: 564
  • Endless Eternity, Eternally Endless.
    • View Profile
Re: Master class design question
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2012, 03:20:05 PM »
What is worse are the classes with high requirements that don't >do< anything.
~Do you think its possible that someone else is doing this very same thing at this very same moment?~
~D~