Back to Crafty Games Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
April 18, 2014, 06:09:20 AM
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Welcome to the Crafty Games Forums!

Note to New Members: To combat spam, we have instituted new rules: you must post 5 replies to existing threads before you can create new threads.

+  Crafty Games Forum
|-+  Products
| |-+  Fantasy Craft
| | |-+  Multiple instances of the same NPC quality and attribute adjustment stacks
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Multiple instances of the same NPC quality and attribute adjustment stacks  (Read 445 times)
Ares
Handler
*****
Posts: 739


deus ex machina


View Profile
« on: September 13, 2012, 06:34:22 AM »

While conducting experimental character creation, I stumbled upon a few issues:

1. How do you convert multiple instances of the same NPC quality, i.g. dark vision II from Elemental Legacy Darkness + step 1 Path of Darkness dark vision I.
Is the additional instance just ignored (and therefore the force of nature(darkness) player screwed over), or do you handle this analogue to feats and proficiencies, where you are allowed to pick an other feat/proficiency?

2. Attribute adjustments: Some races, especially unborn have the option to freely allocate their attribute adjustment bonus. Are they allowed to put it into an attribute with a malus?
Saurians have Dex +2 any+2 and any-2. Can the any parts cancel each other or the Dex bonus out? What about giving Dex another boost to +4?

What about those first level feats, that allow you to adjust your attributes by -2 for another first level only feat: How far can those be stacked on the same Attribute.
Unborn are immune to Cha damage, so they can reduce their score to 1 without a problem. But what if they accumulate a -10 to Charisma but only have an attribute score of 8? (besides being a munchkin Wink )
Logged

Plan B: Use more fire
Creamor
Mister Andersen
Control
******
Posts: 10114


I'm leaving for a destination I still don't know


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2012, 07:37:38 AM »

1. As written, once a legacy ability runs out of steps that's kinda it. Which is indeed rough for darkvision because you can get it up to some crazy numbers without trying that hard, so as a houserule for grades III and above I'd reduce the error range on Awareness and Perception checks made in Dim, Faint or No light by 1 per additional grade to a minimum of 0.

2. Yes, they can stack and cancel each other out: +2 Dex/+2 Any/-2 Any has the same reasonably hefty build cost as +4 Dex/-2 Any.

3. The -2 penalty for additional racial feats at 1st level can go anywhere you ant it to go, though ultimately your GC has the final say on how many you can pick up. The lowest a PC's stat is allowed to drop is 3, so if you start with a stat of 8 you're only going to be able to burn that stat for 2 (8->6, 6->4, then no more as you can't pay the 2 attributes points and drop to 2).

If you are munchkining like that, then the GC has pretty much every right to declare that the PC has no capacity for more than rudimentary independant thought (you might be a genius, but you don't have any sort of drive to enact that intelligence unless directed), and unthinkingly follows every order given to them by the rest of the party. And that would be on top of the potentially crippling hit that character would be taking to their Lifestyle and Legend, and the justifiable tendency of others to react to their presence with torches and pitchforks.
Logged

Ares
Handler
*****
Posts: 739


deus ex machina


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2012, 09:40:42 AM »

The lowest a PC's stat is allowed to drop is 3, so if you start with a stat of 8 you're only going to be able to burn that stat for 2 (8->6, 6->4, then no more as you can't pay the 2 attributes points and drop to 2).

Interesting, I wasn't aware that there is a minimum of 3 for you stats. Could you tell me were to find this particular rule (Since I am the GM I try to stay on top of rules knowledge)
Logged

Plan B: Use more fire
Creamor
Mister Andersen
Control
******
Posts: 10114


I'm leaving for a destination I still don't know


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2012, 10:03:06 AM »

Hmm, looks like I was misremembering the following rule from the bsline d20 rules as applying to all 6 abilities: Animals typically have an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, creatures of humanlike intelligence have a score of at least 3.

So it looks like your munchkin could squeeze another feat in there for a starting Charisma of 1, otherwise everything else I said about being obscenely aimless, maleable, and utterly unlikeable still applies. Only, you know, more so.

Judging by the point buy chart, 8 has been judged as the minimum feasible value of an ability.
Logged

Sletchman
Control
******
Posts: 4102


Gentleman Scholar.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2012, 11:02:42 AM »

Isn't there a rule where 0 of any attribute results on being unconscious?  I also think there was a rule where negative stats are a save vs death or die type situation, too.  Stat drain spells and poisons sure make super low stats look less appealing in that case.  I'm AFB, so I could be remembering an SC rule.
Logged
SilvercatMoonpaw
Control
******
Posts: 1153



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2012, 11:12:42 AM »

I don't have my book with me right now, but I think I recall FC bumped the minimum Intelligence for sapience up to 6.  Just pointing that out because it means you can't dump stat Intelligence very far and still be PC-worthy.
Logged
Bill Whitmore
Mastermind
Control
*****
Posts: 2263


Woot, I got a new hat! :P


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2012, 11:27:20 AM »

Minimum Intelligence for Sapience is not defined in the FC book.  Something of the Animal type is non-sapient per the definition of the Animal type and the animal type limits Intelligence to 6, but that does not mean Intelligence 6 or less equates to being non-sapient.

By the rules as written, there is no lower limit for stats.  You could lower it all the way down to 1 if you wanted.  But any attribute impairment that brings you to 0 ("An attribute may not drop below 0", page 9) will render you unconscious.  Stay that way for 24 hours or take any further attribute damage and you have to make a Fort save or die of DC 10 + 1 per previous save.
Logged

Don't follow your passion.  Take it with you.

ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER!   Ramen.
Mister Andersen
Control
******
Posts: 10114


I'm leaving for a destination I still don't know


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2012, 11:32:16 AM »

I don't have my book with me right now, but I think I recall FC bumped the minimum Intelligence for sapience up to 6.  Just pointing that out because it means you can't dump stat Intelligence very far and still be PC-worthy.

Nope. Intelligence has pretty much always been the IQ scale minus a zero.

Isn't there a rule where 0 of any attribute results on being unconscious?  I also think there was a rule where negative stats are a save vs death or die type situation, too.  Stat drain spells and poisons sure make super low stats look less appealing in that case.  I'm AFB, so I could be remembering an SC rule.

Yes, it's an FC rule. You down and stay down until the affected stat reaches 1.

Unsurprisingly, 2.0 treated having a stat zeroed rather more complexly:

  • Strength: The character becomes dazed, sprawled, and helpless, though he may still speak.
  • Dexterity: The character becomes paralyzed, though he may still speak.
  • Constitution: The character immediately dies (see page 340).
  • Intelligence: The character becomes stunned and incapable of higher thought.
  • Wisdom: The character's sanity slips and he becomes either frenzied or terrified (50% chance of becoming either every 2d10 minutes). If the character is sleeping, or becomes stunned or unconscious, the current condition lasts for double the standard amount of time.
  • Charisma: The character falls into a coma, becoming unconscious.
Logged

SilvercatMoonpaw
Control
******
Posts: 1153



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2012, 12:20:19 PM »

Minimum Intelligence for Sapience is not defined in the FC book.  Something of the Animal type is non-sapient per the definition of the Animal type and the animal type limits Intelligence to 6, but that does not mean Intelligence 6 or less equates to being non-sapient.
This works for me because you can have funny moments where a beast is more intelligent than a human.

Nope. Intelligence has pretty much always been the IQ scale minus a zero.
Huh? But then how does this work?  Can you rate beast IQ vs human IQ?  Do these two interpretations both work at the same time, or are they mutually incompatible and if so which does the book say?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 12:23:21 PM by SilvercatMoonpaw » Logged
Bill Whitmore
Mastermind
Control
*****
Posts: 2263


Woot, I got a new hat! :P


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2012, 12:35:29 PM »

Quick clarification.

There is a difference between Beast and Animal in Fantasy Craft.

Can you rate beast IQ vs human IQ?

Absolutely, beast and folk use pretty much identical intelligence scales.


Can you rate animal IQ vs human IQ?
Not really, they are basically using different scales.  The animal type's lack of sapience is represented by more than limiting Intelligence to 6.  It also removes any Competence score and restricts access to a subset of skills.

Even the smartest of animals will never learn to craft weapons or set bones as they lack access to Crafting and Medicine.  These are things even the dumbest of humans can learn (even with Intelligence of 1), though their lack of skill points and penalty from low intelligence to the skill check means they may never be very good at it.
Logged

Don't follow your passion.  Take it with you.

ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER!   Ramen.
SilvercatMoonpaw
Control
******
Posts: 1153



View Profile
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2012, 12:50:35 PM »

There is a difference between Beast and Animal in Fantasy Craft.
Right.  My mind is not working well today.
The animal type's lack of sapience is represented by more than limiting Intelligence to 6.
So we're still on Animals having a max of 6?  That's what's confusing me.
Logged
Bill Whitmore
Mastermind
Control
*****
Posts: 2263


Woot, I got a new hat! :P


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2012, 01:07:28 PM »

So we're still on Animals having a max of 6?  That's what's confusing me.

Ah, its listed under the description for the animal type on page 226.

Animal  (+0  XP): The  NPC  is  non-sapient,  relying  on  base instinct and natural ability to survive. Its Intelligence score may not  be  higher  than  6  and  it  may  not  become  proficient  except with  extraordinary  and  natural  attacks.
Logged

Don't follow your passion.  Take it with you.

ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER!   Ramen.
Ares
Handler
*****
Posts: 739


deus ex machina


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2012, 01:57:55 PM »

  • Charisma: The character falls into a coma, becoming unconscious.
Again, that's very interesting, since constructs are immune against charisma damage and can't fall unconscious.
Notwithstanding that I wouldn't allow such blatant system abuse, this would explain a lot about the difference between a soulless automaton and a real character.
I've got to remember this when I confront the PCs with a soulless killingmachine and one possible solution is for the mage to cast wits(cha) on it, to give it empathy. (Poor robot couldn't understand love  Grin )
Logged

Plan B: Use more fire
Creamor
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!