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Author Topic: Governments Should Fear Their People: Your Right To Vote  (Read 1910 times)
MilitiaJim
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« Reply #45 on: September 10, 2012, 04:55:22 PM »

Sorry, I meant out-of-pocket costs. But, you know what? Paying taxes really isn't that bad. I'd much rather have a smaller pay packet each pay day if it means our country has good schools, healthcare, government-subsidised movies, and all the other things our taxes pay for.
That's an entirely reasonable proposition.  Then we get to my "beloved" federales (as opposed to the many states and counties/shires):
SchoolsSpending has been worthless to counterproductive
HealthcareOutcomes for the poor are not statistically better than nothing
TelevisionI can't think of much that was worth the time I spent watching it, I shudder to think of the drek that would hit a movie theater

I'm still missing the explanation about how nationalizing our health care system would improve it.  (The procedures that have increased fastest in quality and dropped most in price are the ones that insurance doesn't cover, so the medicos have to compete on value:  Laser eye and cosmetic surgery.)
I may be misreading this, but I think you answered your own question here. If the insurance companies were effectively removed from medicine altogether, wouldn't all areas then improve more quickly in terms of quality and value for money?
Probably.  The problem there is where you come up with $60,000 to cover a cancer treatment.  It is also worth mentioning that the things that have improved are not emergency items.  You have time to search around and find the best deal, a luxury you do not have when being medevacced from a car wreck.  Insurance is what you need in case of sudden catastrophe.  It shouldn't be covering regular expenses, and is stupid expensive because it generally is forced to.  (Think about what your car insurance would be if it covered oil changes.)  Insurance adds value by making a pool of money available for repairing from injury AND by negotiating with hospitals for lower prices/better care.  One of the (many) reasons health stuff in the US is stupid expensive is the lack of information and caring about what things cost.  You're spending other people's money, so who cares.  Then the hospital is an asshole to you, because you aren't the customer, the insurance company is.

Speaking of hospitals, money, and assholes:  One of my buddies is an ocologist.  As the attending physician, money doesn't come up between him and the patient.  He wasn't told what things would cost, he only started to find out when he occasionally saw bills.  The money is argued about between the patient's insurer and the hospital.  (At least for acute leukemia.)

There are plenty of reasons why governments, especially Congress, can be seen as incompetent, and many of these stem from times when individual desires win out over the drive to work for the populace at large.
Like their persistent inability/unwillingness to remove a big bottleneck from the training of more doctors, or cut the link between employers and health insurance, or let insurance companies compete nationwide?

TL;DR:  The American health care "system" is a giant monkey cluster goat **** that the governments have been busily making worse for 80+ years.  In spite of itself treats a lot of people effectively.

P.S.  Rich ---holes scrambling to extend their miserable lives, and rich athletes scrambling extend their working years do pay for quite a bit of research that does trickle down into everyday medicine.
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« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2012, 05:00:14 PM »

Considering the hell I just went through over a few hundred bucks with my insurance claiming my shingles was a pre-existing condition because I had chicken pox as a child, I can't see how they could be any worse.
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« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2012, 06:32:23 PM »

Since we're off on this side topic, I thought I would share one of the best articles I've read on the subject.  I agree with most of what the author is saying.  It's a bit long but, well worth the read.

How American Health Care Killed My Father
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MilitiaJim
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« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2012, 09:49:39 PM »

url=http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/09/how-american-health-care-killed-my-father/307617/]How American Health Care Killed My Father[/url]
"...remove consumers from our irreplaceable role as the ultimate ensurer of value."  THIS IS THE PROBLEM.  IT IS NOT BEING FIXED.  Right, indoor voice.  Sorry.  Yeah, three years and I can't think of anything in this article having gotten any better.   Angry
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« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2012, 12:22:50 AM »

I didn't want this to become too partisan, but the goodly majority of that failure can be squarely placed at the feet and in the hands of Republicans with their by now infamous unwillingness to compromise in order to do everything possible to remove Obama from office, not to mention the stunningly repressive measures Republican-dominated state legislatures such as mandatory transvaginal ultrasounds for women seeking terminations, the targeting of Family Planning in an attempt to make it imposible for them to practice, women being legally pregnant two weeks before conception, the removal of birth control medication (frequently prescribed as a treatment for other medical conditions) from insurance benefits at the whim of employers, congressional panels on women's health that have no women on them and seek to actively intimidate any women trying to testify before them as sluts and whores, and people on science panels who genuinely believe that "if it's a legitimate rape, women's bodies have measures to shut that down and not get pregnant". Not to mention their own female members coming out and saying that women are lucky to have paid work at all and how stupid are you for wanting to be paid equally because then you'll never get a man.

You might not like either party and might feel that you're being forced to choose between the lesser of two evils, but by chooing not to vote not only are you just on general principles tacitly supporting the winner because you didn't do anything to stop them, in this case it also means that the chances are going to be pretty good that tacit support is going towards the Republicans who -- quite apart from being responsible for the economic policies that have deeply fucked over America and seeking to remove the ability to contribute to the political process of people who disagree with them -- will be doing everything in the power to reduce the women in your lives to second class citizens defined by and restricted to their role as breeding stock.
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MilitiaJim
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« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2012, 06:30:46 AM »

I didn't want this to become too partisan, but the goodly majority of that failure can be squarely placed at the feet and in the hands of Republicans with their by now infamous unwillingness to compromise in order to do everything possible to remove Obama from office,
I will merely laugh bitterly.  Obama's ideas regarding "good economics" failed Hoover and everyone else who has tried them since.  Whether the objections are personal, good economics, good politics, appreciation of Constitutional rights, or bad politics, I don't care.  Opposition to bad policies right now is key.

The housing bubble was very bipartisan.  Most instances of corruption tend to be bipartisan.  The modest power each Congresscritter has becomes very large when they aggregate.  Twain was very right when he said that no man's life or property is safe when the legislature in session.

I appreciate your sentiment that Republicans are stupid, and I've got better things to do than try and defend a party I dislike, but you should be a bit more bipartisan in your blame casting and dislike.
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« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2012, 07:09:18 AM »

I know little about the US political system, but after a little research it seems that I would unfailingly vote Democrat. I disagree with 80% of Republican policies.

Does that make me a 'liberal'? It seems to be a dirty word these days, and I don't know why.
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« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2012, 08:00:11 AM »

... It seems to be a dirty word these days, and I don't know why.
Because American "liberals" are statist twits not proponents of individual freedom.
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« Reply #53 on: September 11, 2012, 08:03:30 AM »

I will merely laugh bitterly.  Obama's ideas regarding "good economics" failed Hoover and everyone else who has tried them since.  Whether the objections are personal, good economics, good politics, appreciation of Constitutional rights, or bad politics, I don't care.  Opposition to bad policies right now is key.

Oh, I agree that Obama isn't the miracle godsend he was hyped as being, and in some ways perpetuates the same old same old -- his refusal/political inability to re-regulate the financial sector as part of the GFC bail-out deal being a huge case in point. But for all his failures he is at least trying while the Republicans seem to be opposeing everything on the basis of ideology and the desire to paint him as blackly as possible rather than any sort of rational appraisal of the atual worth of an individual piece of legislation

Quote
I appreciate your sentiment that Republicans are stupid, and I've got better things to do than try and defend a party I dislike, but you should be a bit more bipartisan in your blame casting and dislike.

Yeah, get back to me on that when the Democrats have been demonstrated to be engaged in massive and ongoing electoral disenfranchisement (on a clearly ethnic basis), trying their best to ruin your country in order to fool the gullable, the stupid, and the outright racist into putting them back into power, and Taliban-esque hate campaigns targeting women, free speech and critical thinking.
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« Reply #54 on: September 11, 2012, 08:28:38 AM »

In before the lock.
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MilitiaJim
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« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2012, 08:52:59 AM »

...he is at least trying ...
To make things worse.  Opposition to making things worse is good. 
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"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
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« Reply #56 on: September 11, 2012, 09:41:44 AM »

To look at things regarding just economics, Bush took about 8 yrs to put us $8 trillion in debt with half the Congress being Republican. Obama took 2 yrs to get us another $8 trillion in debt with a Democratic Party controlled Congress.

The unfortunate thing for the Republican Party is that the Religious Right has taken it over and is pushing their social agenda. Not all Republicans believe in what the Religious Right is doing, myself among them. I'm a Constitutionalist and more centrist in my views. What the Republicans have failed to realize, maybe they are in denial, is that the Religious Right is going to kill their party, especially after the way they treated Ron Paul at the convention (his name was not permitted to be spoken at a microphone on stage). Point in fact, following this election (regardless who wins) I'm changing parties to the Liberatarians who believe in fiscal conservatism and socially centrism.

The thing most people forget about Ron Paul is he predicted the housing bubble in 2001, shortly before 9/11 in fact, 6 YEARS before it happened. On April 24th, 2002, he recited a list of events that he said would most likely happen in the next 5 to 10 years and was 95% accurate about what would have happened in the US and the world.

For what its worth, both Obama and Romney have more similarities than differences. Both are supported by Goldman Sachs, are warmongers (Obama's promise on Oct 1st, 2007 to bring the troops home as his first action still rings in my ears), utilize abortion as a political weapon, flip flop on many issues, and expect America to blindly follow their lead.

As for the free speech thing, both parties are more than guilty.

Most people do not remember how Obama came to be a US Senator (of which he never served a full term before running for Congress). They had a special election in Illinois to replace the Senator who stepped down out of scandal. Obama and his team got all of his competition kicked off the ballot so he could win. Then, without having served a full term, he runs for President and wins, primarily because it was the right climate.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 10:51:51 AM by Desertpuma » Logged

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« Reply #57 on: September 11, 2012, 10:51:06 AM »

And on that wonderful note, I think we've reached the limits of civilized crafty style discourse. But I'm not a mod. Didn't like my own tone there. Sorry.
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« Reply #58 on: September 11, 2012, 03:16:11 PM »

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« Reply #59 on: September 11, 2012, 07:46:59 PM »

Yeah, time for this one to go off to a nice farm where it can play with other threads forever and ever.
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