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Author Topic: Governments Should Fear Their People: Your Right To Vote  (Read 2122 times)
MilitiaJim
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« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2012, 08:00:43 AM »

Alternatively, who has the best tax rates in the country?  Those on the higher end of the income bracket and those most represented during voting.
Probably the nearly half of the population that has no federal tax liability at all...

For the record:  I oppose a government run universal healthcare system.  I have complete confidence in my federal government to make an already warped system EVEN WORSE.  (It would also be the end of medical innovation:  FDA certification + Pentagon "quality" procurement.  Yeah, nevermind.)  It would also be completely unconstitutional, though sometimes I wonder why I bother to bring that up.
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« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2012, 09:31:45 AM »

Safely ensconced in my government-run universal healthcare system, with its bulk-billing system that means I don't have to pay to see a competent medical practitioner, functional public hospitals that will treat me until I'm well, and pharmaceutical benefits scheme that keeps the grossly inflated price of medication affordable, I don't know whether to laugh or cry at a statement that supports the belief that a government can't or shouldn't provide such services.
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« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2012, 09:34:16 AM »

Mr. A, it stems from the fact that anytime the US Government in the past 100 yrs has poured money into an industry that industry has gotten worse because of it. As MilitiaJim said, it is also not in the US Constitution and therefore falls under the 10th Amendment which means each individual State determines it for themselves.
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« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2012, 01:38:37 PM »

First, we've been trying to get universal healthcare since the 1930s.

Second, it is in the Constitution, under the powers of Congress. Article 1, Seciton 8, Clause 1.

As for the poor not voting, the current system is setup to discourage them from voting.
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« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2012, 09:12:10 PM »

Second, it is in the Constitution, under the powers of Congress. Article 1, Seciton 8, Clause 1.
"General Welfare"?  BAHAHAHAHAHAHA.  That's the most compelling argument for undoing most federal involvement in health care and plenty of other things.
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« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2012, 09:24:41 PM »

It also says "Promote the general welfare", not provide welfare. It is meant to refer to the economy according to documents I read in high school.
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« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2012, 12:31:32 AM »

Safely ensconced in my government-run universal healthcare system, with its bulk-billing system that means I don't have to pay to see a competent medical practitioner, functional public hospitals that will treat me until I'm well, and pharmaceutical benefits scheme that keeps the grossly inflated price of medication affordable, I don't know whether to laugh or cry at a statement that supports the belief that a government can't or shouldn't provide such services.

Everyone but Americans in the developed world has some form of universal health care. Mine is Canadian and I have a very hard time even understanding how it took this long for the USA to get even the half-hearted version that they have now. Every outcome that benefits your average citizen (barring your extreme corner cases); child mortality, obesity... etc., has better results in countries where universal health care is a given. I admire America for many things but this part of their system will always seem a little crazy (I understand that there is enormous pressure from the private insurance industry to keep things the way they are.) Nevertheless, maybe they'll get there in increments. There are many things private industry does better and more efficiently than governments, I don't believe health care for an entire citizenry to be one of them.
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« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2012, 06:44:46 AM »

Healthcare is the only reason that I haven't moved to America. The well-meaning but flawed NHS is still the preferable option to a system that will throw a child out on the street to die if their parents health insurance runs out. I can't get my head around a system where that can happen.

Is health insurance as expensive as it sounds? Am I right in thinking that employers offer it?
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« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2012, 07:17:01 AM »

No hospital is going to throw your kid out if you stop paying, but you may end up with some ridiculously huge bill.

Employers generally covering health insurance is a big portion of why it is so expensive, and why worker wages have stagnated.  (It is a lingering relic of WWII price controls.)  The other driver of insurance costs are state legislatures that require policies issued in the state to cover this, that, and the other.  I cannot purchase cancer/hit-by-a-bus insurance without tacking all sorts of extra things like fertility treatment.  (In NY, your state may vary.)  Isn't that thoughtful of the legislators to force folks to pay for coverage they neither need or want?
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« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2012, 08:04:53 AM »

So say a high school teacher (like me) goes to live in Washington (state, not DC). How much am I looking at per month to cover 2 adults and 2 kids?
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« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2012, 08:19:17 AM »

So say a high school teacher (like me) goes to live in Washington (state, not DC). How much am I looking at per month to cover 2 adults and 2 kids?
Public school will include that as part of your compensation package.  Other than that, I have no idea.
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« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2012, 08:49:40 AM »

You could also have it deducted from your paychecks for private schools. For exact costs, you'd have to investigate within that State.

Another driver of health insurance costs going up is medical malpractice which happens more often than you might think. Some doctor screws the pooch, then he, the hospital, the health insurance company and whoever else might be involved like pharmaceutical companies. The result is that after a big payout, prices are increased to compensate themselves for the loss of money. It's just the way it works.

Sometimes civil suits follow too.

I have no issue with government providing a low cost public option as long as it is in competition with the health insurance companies. Obama promised that was what he wanted but it went to Congress, the special interest groups and lobbyists got a hold of it, and we got 1000 pages of shit that'll run the country into the ground economically.

Britain and Canada have very solid systems. So does Cuba. The problem is that some people really really want to get paid and not have to work for the government in the process.
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« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2012, 01:55:49 PM »

Healthcare is the only reason that I haven't moved to America.

You're not the only one. Were it not for healthcare, my wife would have us living in Hawaii by now.

How much am I looking at per month to cover 2 adults and 2 kids?

One benefit of the Affordable Care Act is that your kids get to use your health insurance until they're 26, meaning they don't need to worry about buying their own while they're still in school.

Here's an example of the difference between America and NZ:
My Mum returned from a trip to America last weekend. While she was there, she had an asthma attack and had to see a doctor. She ended up being charged US$410 for a quick check up and an inhaler (which was 1/4 of the final cost).

Around the same time she was flying home, my little brother suffered a heart attack (long running heart issues) and had to be rushed to hospital. He spent the first day in an induced coma (thanks to 'Michael Jackson Juice') in the HDU, woke up the next day, and is looking at a week-long stay in hospital as well as having a mini-defibrilator installed in his chest. His total cost for this treatment and stay: NZ$0 (plus whatever he may put into the vending machines - which only dispense healthier food options).

I know which system I prefer.

Yes, there are people who abuse the system, but that is a feature of every system. There are plenty of people who do so in America, the difference is that some of them are corporations.
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« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2012, 04:08:22 PM »

[ His total cost for this treatment and stay: NZ$0 (plus whatever he may put into the vending machines - which only dispense healthier food options).

I know which system I prefer.
It isn't NZ$0, it was a notable portion of your taxes over many years.

Yes, there are people who abuse the system, but that is a feature of every system. There are plenty of people who do so in America, the difference is that some of them are corporations.
We also have the worst designed system, and the latest round of "reform" completely failed to fix the worst of the worst.

I'm still missing the explanation about how nationalizing our health care system would improve it.  (The procedures that have increased fastest in quality and dropped most in price are the ones that insurance doesn't cover, so the medicos have to compete on value:  Laser eye and cosmetic surgery.)

Among the many things I don't trust any government I've dealt competently with to do it manage health care.  (C'mon Krensky, do you really want PennDOT quality folks involved in your medical issues at any point?)
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« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2012, 04:21:39 PM »

[ His total cost for this treatment and stay: NZ$0 (plus whatever he may put into the vending machines - which only dispense healthier food options).

I know which system I prefer.
It isn't NZ$0, it was a notable portion of your taxes over many years.

Sorry, I meant out-of-pocket costs. But, you know what? Paying taxes really isn't that bad. I'd much rather have a smaller pay packet each pay day if it means our country has good schools, healthcare, government-subsidised movies, and all the other things our taxes pay for.

I'm still missing the explanation about how nationalizing our health care system would improve it.  (The procedures that have increased fastest in quality and dropped most in price are the ones that insurance doesn't cover, so the medicos have to compete on value:  Laser eye and cosmetic surgery.)

I may be misreading this, but I think you answered your own question here. If the insurance companies were effectively removed from medicine altogether, wouldn't all areas then improve more quickly in terms of quality and value for money?

There are plenty of reasons why governments, especially Congress, can be seen as incompetent, and many of these stem from times when individual desires win out over the drive to work for the populace at large.
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