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Author Topic: Campaign Quality - trying something out  (Read 679 times)
Wireless
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« on: August 30, 2012, 02:49:39 PM »

This is a work in progress so please forgive the clarity. Just throwing this out to the great set of eyes around here for so possible game breaking things i could miss. Will be trying this out at Sunday game so forgive me it is still not polished.

Campaign Quality : Kung Pow ( changes to grapple rules )

* Initiating a grapple is a full round action, you may move up to a standard move in distance ( taking a -1 to check per 5' ) before reaching opponents space. All characters may only grapple 1 size bigger or 2 sizes smaller.

* Grapple Check is now = BAB + # of unarmed feats you have
    ( you may substitute Athletics or Acrobatics for BAB at a -4 penalty )

* Grappling after initial step is resolved in half actions. Any character grappling is considered Grabbed.  

* Grabbed condition = The character is engaged in a grapple. The characters first half action of every round while grabbed must be a grappling check. Their second half action may be used as normal for an attack or intiative action. The character looses Dex bonus to deffence, all dodge bonuses, and may not take movement actions ( unless a benefit of grapple ) even the 5' step. All characters suffer a -3 penalty with all Attacks, Saves, Skill Checks, or any other action besides the grappling check. DR from Armor is halved ( round up ). Basically flat footed with so extras.

* Grapple Checks are made by all participants on their initiative count.

* If a character fails two or more grapple checks in one round the become Held. If Held the become Pinned.

* If a character wins a grapple check on their initiative,  they may chose a grapple benefit. With a critical result ( threat 20 )
the character may spend 1 AD to get a second benefit. With a critical failure ( error 1 ) their opponent may spend up to 1 AD to gain a benefit as if it was their turn.

* If the character wins a grapple check on another characters initiative count they may chose one of the benefits :
        + Break Free = if grabbed , if held become grabbed , if pinned become held
        + Move = move the grapple 5' in any direction
        + Injure = do half damage from a unarmed attack ( no tricks )
        + Disarm= disarm ( this check is a separate check with the penalty for being grabbed )

Thank you in advance for taking the time to hear me out and any prospective or problems you might spot.

« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 03:40:51 PM by Wireless » Logged
Deral
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« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2012, 03:31:50 PM »

It will be interesting to see where this goes, but the first thing that jumps out at me is this:
* Grapple Check is now = BAB + # of unarmed feats you have
    ( you may substitute Athletics or Acrobatics for BAB at a -4 penalty )
Makes NPCs pretty dern good at grappling all around, V grade attack and higher will all be at least at the same level as the Soldier, assuming Menace II.

Also, are you planning on retaining size modifiers, and does Swallow still function as normal?
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Wireless
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« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2012, 03:38:45 PM »

Yes Size and all other modifiers will still be the same. Anything not spelled out as changed is still RAW.

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tfwfh
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« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2012, 06:53:40 PM »

* Grapple Check is now = BAB + # of unarmed feats you have
    ( you may substitute Athletics or Acrobatics for BAB at a -4 penalty )
I agree with Deral.  If your goal is to make main combatant style characters better at grappling, I think something like "make a Athletics check or Unarmed attack check opposed by the target's Athletics or Unarmed attack check" would be less disruptive.

Quote
* Grabbed condition = The character is engaged in a grapple. The characters first half action of every round while grabbed must be a grappling check. Their second half action may be used as normal for an attack or intiative action. The character looses Dex bonus to deffence, all dodge bonuses, and may not take movement actions ( unless a benefit of grapple ) even the 5' step. All characters suffer a -3 penalty with all Attacks, Saves, Skill Checks, or any other action besides the grappling check. DR from Armor is halved ( round up ). Basically flat footed with so extras.
This is awkward to me.  I think what I would suggest instead is to alter the Grapple action to be a Full round action that also allows the character to take a certain type of half action at the same time.  Similar to how Total Defense is a full action that allows you to take a standard move, Grapple would be a full round action that allows you to make a standard attack.  Functionally, they're pretty much the same, but the 2nd way is a smaller modification to the rules, and I think it feels more like a bonus (you get to take an extra attack action) rather than a restriction (you can only use this half action to attack).

Also, what Initiative action do you envision being used here?  The standard list is Aim, Anticipate, Delay, Distract, Ready, and Refresh.  None of those seem like something you could do while holding someone in a kung fu joint lock (please forgive my lack of martial arts knowledge, you know what I mean), much less being held in one yourself.

Quote
* If the character wins a grapple check on another characters initiative count they may chose one of the benefits :
        + Break Free = if grabbed , if held become grabbed , if pinned become held
        + Move = move the grapple 5' in any direction
        + Injure = do half damage from a unarmed attack ( no tricks )
        + Disarm= disarm ( this check is a separate check with the penalty for being grabbed )
I don't feel good about letting characters take most of these actions when it's not their turn.  It creates the very strange situation where the best tactic for an expert grappler is to goad someone into grabbing him, so that he can win the grapple on his turn to take a grapple benefit, and then win again on his opponent's turn to take a second grapple benefit.  It also perpetuates the strange situation (there's a number of threads around here regarding this) that the best option for a poor grappler is to do nothing on their turn, rather than try to resist the grapple (by a certain common interpretation of the RAW, which was not the intent.  Again, see the other threads, mostly in the FC section of the forums).

It seems to me that your broader goal is to make grappling less isolated from the rest of combat, so that the participants in a grapple don't just drop out of a fight that's happening around them, and sort of make things into a Jackie Chan or Jet Li movie.  If so, and if you're looking for more grapple benefits for the winner when it's not their turn, maybe you should think more defensively.  There is at least one trick somewhere (a feat maybe?) that lets you redirect a missed attack to another target instead.  So you could do something similar.  Instead of a Screaming Club, you have a Screaming Shield.  Your opponent takes -4 defense for a round, and any attack against you that misses can hit them instead.

Otherwise though, I think this looks good.  I like that it makes Grapples more involved with the rest of a combat, and less just two dudes rolling around on the ground, UFC style.
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Who's the more foolish, the fool or tfwfh?
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« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2012, 07:47:07 AM »

Deral and tfwfh I do see your concern with the BAB + # unarmed feats, but my thinking was this :

In the last two mini campaigns the Athletics plus high STR started to become a " win " button. So by going with just BAB + feats it shortens the field to good fighters and bad fighters. The penalty ( i am not sure about ) was to level the playing field for the high STR (DEX) and lower STR ( DEX) characters for some forms of combat  because athletics already adds in STR and acrobatics adds DEX. Like tia chi you dont need to be strong just need to know how.

As for the actions you get to pick on someone elses  turn by winning the grapple I see that more of like a combat instincts thing they tried to hit you but you turned it on them. Please keep in mind that the list of things they can do not on their turn is limited to those 4 things with all the limits they have. only 5' move, must make disarm check with penalty, only half unarmed dam with no tricks. I do understand your concerns and I could be missing something.

Why I left in initiative actions for two reasons. One just not to limit myself any more for the moment like you said it is all about actions and options ( keeping them in the game not the sidelines ) Two I can see some of those in play. For example the distract thing the defender throws up his cloak to reveal a punch from nowhere. How about anticipate knowing that the ninja your fighting always leads with his foot when he tries his knife hand.

tfwfh the screaming shield thing is too good to pass up and I did want to have more options for the grappler on their turn just didn't get that far. Your wording of grabbed is a lot cleaner.





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Wireless
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« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2012, 01:32:15 AM »

WOW that took a long time to try out. After three games grappling does not seem to be my groups thing. They were a little confused like mentioned about doing action when not on there turn and it felt " off " to them is all they could say. To them it felt out of place to the rest of the system.

So with a little revision and a little advice taken here is my latest try:

Campaign Quality: Kung Pow

Grappling is a Full round action, but you may now take a free Attack or Initiative half Action as part of the full round. No movement actions are allowed as part of this free action. Trick may be applied to the Attack action but may never lead to more free attacks.

Special Characters must be held twice in a row to become pinned. No change to standard character

Grappling check is replaced with,

Grappling Check = STR(mod) + # Unarmed Feats +( BAB or  Athletics / Acrobatics Ranks 2)

New Grapple Benefits :

   Screaming Shield As per human shield but half cover bonus, but gain a free Block Trick once a round. If successful the damage is applied to the Screaming Shield instead of being blocked.

   Screaming Hurled Weapon Opponent is used as hurled weapon and thrown. Attack is the same as screaming club but becomes a onetime ranged attack. The attack has a range of squares equal to STR(mod) + Reach + Size defense bonus of screaming hurled weapon.

Like always looking for any thoughts or serious damage to the game I may be missing.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 01:29:17 PM by Wireless » Logged
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