Back to Crafty Games Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 24, 2014, 03:32:11 AM
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Welcome to the Crafty Games Forums!

Note to New Members: To combat spam, we have instituted new rules: you must post 5 replies to existing threads before you can create new threads.

+  Crafty Games Forum
|-+  Products
| |-+  Mistborn Adventure Game
| | |-+  Feruchemy, Pewter and Monster Wraiths
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Feruchemy, Pewter and Monster Wraiths  (Read 1657 times)
azfather1st
Crafty n00b

Posts: 2


View Profile
« on: June 23, 2012, 04:49:30 AM »

This stopped our gaming group cold tonight.  I have looked through the boards and while the issue has been addressed (albeit not within the past 120 days, so the boards tell me), I have not seen an adequate resolution.

Here is the situation...

Our group, which includes a feruchamist, a mistborn and a "normal", encountered a monster wraith.  Using the rules as written and as outlined in these forums, our feruchamist, who has Physique 5, tapped 30 pewter, using 5 charges to bring his action dice for an attack to 10 and used the remaining 25 charges for 5 nudges.  He rolled particularly well, with a pair of 5's and 6 nudges.  He was also burning 20 iron for weight (+2 damage) and 20 brass for heat (+1 damage).  Overall, this resulted in 13 damage [1 (base) + 5 (pewter nudges) + 6 (rolled nudges) + 2 (tapping iron) + 1 (tapping brass) = 15 - 2 (durable form 2) = 13] to the monster wraith, bringing it to 0 health immediately making it so the wraith could not even use it's regeneration ability.  With one (albeit lucky) punch, our feruchamist took down a MONSTER WRAITH!  That just does not even seem logical or possible.

Are we interpreting and applying the rules correcty?  If so, this seems to be a HUGE imbalance in the game.  On numerous ocassions, our feruchamist has outshone our mistborn by a great deal, tapping speed, strength, weight, and so forth for truly spectacular effects.  While we know that feruchemy IS spectacular, we feel it is much too strong given the current rules.  The above example was with a feruchamist with only 3 in feruchemy.  Can you imagine what he could do with a 4 or 5?  What about a 10?

If anyone has any insight on this issue or, better yet, an official remedy or ruling, it would be greatly appreciated!
Logged
Skywalker
Operative
****
Posts: 291



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2012, 05:07:45 AM »

He rolled 6 6s and 2 5s on 10 dice! That alone is absolutely amazing. Honestly, your players dice luck is more unbelievable than the result Smiley
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 05:09:54 AM by Skywalker » Logged
Crafty_Pat
Crafty Staff
Control
*****
Posts: 9465


End of the World? Donít believe the hype.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2012, 05:16:50 AM »

That's a pretty stellar roll and the odds against it happening again anytime soon are rather extreme. I'd go with the most amazing description you can possibly muster and chalk it up to a moment of defining heroic greatness.
Logged

Patrick Kapera
Crafty Games
www.crafty-games.com

UPDATES/PRESS INFO
Mailing List: http://bit.ly/14FJIw7
RSS: www.crafty-games.com/needtoknow
Facebook: www.facebook.com/craftygames
Twitter: www.twitter.com/Crafty_Games
YouTube: www.youtube.com/craftyhomeoffice

In game terms, reality is b
azfather1st
Crafty n00b

Posts: 2


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2012, 12:53:02 PM »

While I agree that the roll is spectacular and not likely to happen again anytime soon, it does not address the underlying issue - one of balance.

Let us project this feruchamist into the future a little bit so that he now has a rank of 5 in pewter allowing him to tap 50 charges of pewter at a time.  Using 5 charges to increase his die pool to 10, that leaves 45 charges for 9 nudges.  Keeping the rest of the scenario the same (tapping 20 iron for +2 damage and 20 brass for +1 damage), he now only needs to successfully hit the monster wraith with 2 nudges to acheive the same result (1 + 9 + 2 + 2 + 1 = 15 - 2 = 13) of incapacitating the monster wraith.  A roll of two 5's (keeping the scenario as similar as possible, although any pair that was not successfully defended against would do) and two 6's on 10 dice is far from spectacular (although still very good), and now our feruchamist has taken out a monster wraith with a much less dramatic punch.

About the only thing our feruchamist could not take out immediately in most circumstances would be a Steel Inquisitor burning pewter (16 health).  But with a little luck (a few more nudges) or a little more skill in feruchemy (allowing more tapped pewter nudges), even this becomes possible.  Could you imagine Sazed taking out a Steel Inquisitor with a single punch (ignoring that it is not truly in Sazed's nature to do so)?  Well, for Sazed (on page 495) with physique 4, pewter 6, iron 6 and 4 in all other metals, this is a fairly simple task.  All he has to do is tap 56 pewter (6 to increase his die pool to 10, 50 to add 10 nudges), tap 60 iron (+6 damage), tap 40 brass (+2 damage) and score a successful hit and the Steel Inquisitor is toast with at least 19 damage (1 + 10 + 6 + 2 = 19).  Not cool.
Logged
Skywalker
Operative
****
Posts: 291



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2012, 02:48:58 PM »

That's still all his charges spent on one roll (assuming a short breather). The thing with the MB dice pool system is that its very compressed and even with 10 dice you aren't guaranteed success as you have to go with the highest match. Getting matched 5s on lower dice pools is pretty high (I have seen a Feruchemist blowing 40 charges fail against a guy rolling 2 5s on two dice  Smiley). So, even reliably getting 2 5s and 2 6s and succeeding is an uncertain proposition. A Feruchemist blowing everything on one roll is taking a big and possible fatal risk. For example, a Mistborn can also get ten dice easily (making it a 50/50 gamble for the Feruchemist) and with almost no cost. If the Feruchemist fails, they are dead.

Hopefully, most Feruchemists will be cleverer than that and only take that risk when they have no other option. Making 10 rolls at 10 dice is more often a better proposition than 1 roll at 10 dice and 9 nudges. Feruchemy has a very high upper ceiling, but just like in the books, successful use of the power is an exercise in restraint.

Of course, if you have a Feruchemist going up against a single large adversary out of view of others and with no subsequent need for charges, then a Feruchemist can really shine. That's cool. In such perfect conditions, they should have a chance to show off their abilities.

It's not mechanical but there are significant in setting consequences of hulking out in view of others.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 02:58:23 PM by Skywalker » Logged
Crafty_Alex
Crafty Staff
Control
*****
Posts: 3249


Damned if I do, damned if I don't.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2012, 04:35:47 PM »

You're absolutely right - a fully charged Keeper who tries to kill something fast can do so in a single punch. This is true to Feruchemy as we see it in the books ( our primary mission in the game). My question to you then is this:

What about the second target? The third? The keeper's challenge is the long game, not the short.

Sazed spent years of stored pewter during the Seige of Luthadel because he was fighting for a long time. But he could have probably hauled off and killed someone in one hit if he wanted to with a lower expenditure as well - one that would leave him totally defenseless vs the counterattack. That's why he rarely did so because he did not know what was coming next.

At the table, we Narrators too often create single foes - the Big Bads - expecting them to take on the Crew because they can in the books, but in games it's not a fair fight. The rules create necessary limitations which put the single guy at a disadvantage - number of actions that limit his ability to respond, or rules for ganging up. The trick is finding the right way to challenge Heroes on a way that does not play to their advantages directly.

In this case that means not putting all your challenge eggs in one basket. A mistborn's lack of one shot power is compensated for with duration of performance. Put them in a fight vs 10 enemies or 2 big Bads or that lasts a long time and you'll see the keeper start to rely less on the one shot for everything. Throw challenges against the keeper that constantly test him forcing him to dip into his metal minds piecemeal. Don't give him weeks midsession to recharge. And always remind the player of his characters in setting limitations of noninterference, obedience to the Synod, responsibility to survive, and constant threat from the inquisition. Then let the baby have his bottle - a keeper deserves his awesome when he gets the chance, but he has his own weaknesses you can and should use at the table as well.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 04:37:28 PM by Crafty_Alex » Logged

Toloran
Recruit
*
Posts: 10


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2012, 08:36:16 PM »

In pretty much every RPG I've encountered, setting the party vs a single foe always ends badly for the foe. ESPECIALLY if they expect to be able to rest after the fight with the enemy. The less the situation punishes players for over-extending, the more they'll abuse the situation to their advantage.
Logged
ReaderAt2046
Jr. Agent
**
Posts: 64



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2012, 08:26:28 AM »

Could you imagine Sazed taking out a Steel Inquisitor with a single punch (ignoring that it is not truly in Sazed's nature to do so)? 

Actually, he does just that in the middle of the first book, when he's rescuing Vin from Kredik Shaw. So that capability is entirely in keeping with canon.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 03:11:29 PM by ReaderAt2046 » Logged
robertib
Crafty n00b

Posts: 1


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2013, 03:38:06 AM »

There does seem to be one problem that you are overlooking. The ferruchemist can tap 10x his rating per action - not 10x his rating in each metalmind. Reading though your description, he has tapped 110 charges in 1 action.
Logged
tecslicer
Jr. Agent
**
Posts: 62


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2013, 02:36:03 PM »

There does seem to be one problem that you are overlooking. The ferruchemist can tap 10x his rating per action - not 10x his rating in each metalmind. Reading though your description, he has tapped 110 charges in 1 action.

But he has a rating in each and every metal. After a few long breathers he can have a high rating in one metal. Does he use that metal as his rating limit for every action, or one of the other metals?
We see in the books that Feruchemists can tap lots of different metalminds at the same time.

"Tapping: The maximum number of charges a Feruchemist may tap from a
metalmind per action is equal to his rating ◊ 10 with that metal."

So from his copper bracers he can pull such and such an amount of memories, and from his steel nose ring he can pull such and such an amount of speed.

"More detailed explanations of each style of tapping follow.
A Feruchemist can use these options in any combination, but the maximum
number of stored charges that may be tapped for each action or roll is equal
to 10 ◊ the Feruchemistís rating with that metal.
A Feruchemist may also tap any number of metalminds at once, though only
one of each metal for any action or roll. Tapped charges are immediately used,
even if the current action or roll fails."
Logged
Crafty_Alex
Crafty Staff
Control
*****
Posts: 3249


Damned if I do, damned if I don't.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2013, 03:15:57 PM »

Tecslicer is reading it correctly. The intent is that you can pull from 10 x rating in each metal, since you have a rating in every metal individually.
Logged

Caped Crusader
Recruit
*
Posts: 18


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2013, 07:35:25 PM »

Simple. Multiple opponents is one way.

The other is to make them play through the time where they are recharging. Don't let them simply skip the time where they are weak as a kitten or blind as a bat. To expend that much strength, they have to have spent a serious amount of time with little to no strength. Don't let them get out of paying for those charges by skipping over that time. Otherwise, there's no downside.
Logged
Leviathan
Jr. Agent
**
Posts: 52




View Profile
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2013, 08:37:33 PM »

If you really feel that Feruchemy needs a combat nerf, just cut the "Five extra charges grants a free nudge" part.

They're fantastic at splattering something in a single hit, but if the enemy dodges it's a massive resources expenditure.
Logged
Herowannabe
Agent
***
Posts: 116



View Profile
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2013, 07:56:12 PM »

Not to beat a dead horse, but on Brandon Sanderson's website, in the Annotations section he mentions that barring any limitations on resources (ie: metal reserves or feruchemical stores) a Feruchemist would beat a Mistborn in a fight EVERY time. That means that even with Atium the mistborn wouldn't stand a chance (which makes sense: just because you can see the hulking behemoth of a feruchemist run up to you and tear you to shreds faster than a blink of the eye before he does it doesn't mean you'll be fast enough to get away).
Logged


Morgenstern
Control
******
Posts: 5264



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2013, 11:30:19 PM »

Not to beat a dead horse, but on Brandon Sanderson's website, in the Annotations section he mentions that barring any limitations on resources (ie: metal reserves or feruchemical stores) a Feruchemist would beat a Mistborn in a fight EVERY time.

I'm always leary of absolute statements like that outside of a flat white sheet of graph paper as a battlefield and standing start for both theoretical participants - it sort of ignores the power of preparation.

...So barring a limitation on resources and in the absence of two brain cells to rub together Feruchemists maul Mistborn... Cheesy
Logged

At your own pace: Do. It. Now.
How about some pie? - Heroes of the Expanse
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!