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Author Topic: Impossible actions  (Read 124 times)
rafter613
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« on: July 24, 2014, 10:24:44 AM »

So, I don't think this is covered in the book, but comes up a lot in my game. What happens if a character's declared action becomes impossible? Possible examples of this: the target of the declared action is killed, the character is knocked off his feet, or the opponent moves out of the way.
Does the character have to declare a new action at half-dice?
This seems unfair or unsporting in a number of situations. If Character A is a Thug in melee with an enemy, declares an attack against him, and Character B Steelpushes a coin through the enemy, the crew gets punished for killing an enemy? What if there was another enemy right next to Character A that he could just as easily attack?
Additionally, if we have two characters in conflict with each other, Characters A and B, with A declaring first and acting last, if A says that he's going to punch B, B can then declare that he's going to punch A, then step back, and Character A loses half his dice, and then they do the exact same thing next beat?
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Dreamstreamer
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« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2014, 12:43:21 PM »

If their declared action becomes impossible, they can choose a new action and lose half their dice or do nothing. Remember that some actions don't require any dice and are just as effective as they would have been if they had been the originally declared action.

I think that is working as designed. Those who declare last have a huge advantage.

From your example, if your target is taken out, you would have to declare a new action if you wanted to do something other than what you originally declared. When you declared that Will was going to swing his dueling cane at Jace, Will committed to that action. Effectively, his cane is cocking back, telegraphing his intent to smash Jace in the face. Jeb decides to fire off a clip at Jace, too. Because Jeb's dice pool is larger than Will's, his action takes place first. The clip zings over Will's shoulder and tags Jace between the eyes, killing him outright. If Will now wants to change his attack to target Phil (who happened to be standing right next to Jace), he's going to have to refigure his dice pool (depending on what action he now wants to take) and halve the number of dice he gets to use.

Your second example (which reminds me of Muhammad Ali) has two requirements: Character A has lower Wits (declaring later) and a smaller pool of dice formed for an action (acts later). That tells me that Character A is completely out of his or her element with that action, and should likely retreat and come back when the odds are better stacked in his or her favor, or pick a different action where he or she can generate a larger dice pool and go first.

Does that help?
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rafter613
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« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2014, 01:06:20 PM »

Yeah, I suppose that does help crafty characters remain viable in combat. Still seems pretty harsh on the players though. I've been letting them reassign attacks for free if their target becomes invalid (cause they're dead).
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Outis
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« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2014, 02:57:59 PM »

I have a question about Impossible Actions and Disarming. Say Brekt is going to hit me with his Dueling Cane. Now say I declare that I'll Disarm him, and I have the Action Pool to go first. I successfully disarm him.

Is his action now Impossible? Can he simply punch me in the face instead using his original pool of dice? Or was his declared actions specifically, "I attack Outis with a cane," so if he now wants to punch me he has to change his declared action, and take the penalties associated?
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Dreamstreamer
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« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2014, 05:02:15 PM »

If he declared hitting with the cane and now wants to now punch you (lacking the cane), it is a different action, and thus subject to halving the dice pool for the punch.

At least, that is how I'd rule it.
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Kadrok
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« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2014, 06:01:28 PM »

A world of metastrategy just opened up to me  Evil
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Crafty_Alex
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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2014, 04:21:02 PM »

It's almost like we planned it that way...
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Kurkistan_
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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2014, 06:13:54 PM »

It's almost like we planned it that way...

Almost...

Guys, Crafty got lucky with this one!  Wink
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Kadrok
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« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2014, 10:28:32 PM »

Hazekiller declares he is going to strike Jastes's bodyguard this beat. Jastes gleefully declares that he too will strike his bodyguard and with his superior action dice gets to kill the bodyguard first! Jastes cackles with glee as his foe is forced to take a half dice action, letting his other bodyguard easily steamroll the Hazekiller.

Jastes was never particularly good at metastrategy...
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Kurkistan_
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« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2014, 10:46:37 PM »

Why do my characters ever hang out with Kadrok's?  Huh?

[Note: My character is Jastes' bodyguard]
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Gargoyle
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« Reply #10 on: Today at 08:00:48 PM »

Actually, if you have good enough resources, just hire NPCs. Hourly rates work wonders.
One question: Why did the hazekiller go for the bodyguard anyway?
Forget I asked. With Kadrok, I can see the situation becoming like this:
Hazekiller declares he is going to strike Jastes's bodyguard this beat. Jastes gleefully declares that he too will strike his bodyguard himself and with his superior action dice gets to kill the bodyguard himself first! Jastes cackles with glee as his foe is forced to take a half dice action, letting both his other bodyguards easily steamroll the Hazekiller.
Jastes was never particularly good dead awful at metastrategy...
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Kurkistan_
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« Reply #11 on: Today at 08:21:02 PM »

New question that came up in a match: What's with defense dice if you change your action after defending (or your previous declaration becomes impossible)?

So the scenario is that you have, say, 8 Action Dice ready to go to attack someone. In the meantime, that guy attacks you and then takes a step away, making it so that you can't follow through on your action.

When you're defending against his attack, your old action is still technically possible: he hasn't taken the step yet. But once he moves away, it is impossible and you have to re-declare and take half dice.

The question is, then, what happens if I put 4 of my Action Dice into defense initially? Do I lose those dice when I re-jigger my Action Dice after changing my action? If so, do I lose them before or after you divide your new pool by half? What happens if you spend more defense dice than the size of your new pool? So if the new pool is only 5 dice (even before halving) while I spent 6 dice on defense just now?
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Crafty_Alex
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« Reply #12 on: Today at 08:35:08 PM »

New question that came up in a match: What's with defense dice if you change your action after defending (or your previous declaration becomes impossible)?

So the scenario is that you have, say, 8 Action Dice ready to go to attack someone. In the meantime, that guy attacks you and then takes a step away, making it so that you can't follow through on your action.

When you're defending against his attack, your old action is still technically possible: he hasn't taken the step yet. But once he moves away, it is impossible and you have to re-declare and take half dice.

Correct. This also would happen when you're attacked by multiple attackers, and defended multiple times. So Order of operations:

* You have 8 dice. You will act on 8.
* Guy attacks you, you spend 4 to defend (4 left). You will now act on 4.
* He moves away, making your action impossible.
* Your turn comes up, you declare a new action. You halve your Action Dice (4 to 2), and you will act last.
* At the end of the conflict round, you act with 2 dice.

Point is, there is no reason to worry about the new pool, or what you spent prior. You halve the size of your *action* dice pool, whatever it may be. IIRC there is no clause that you have to halve your size based upon your initial pool. Easy-peasy.
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Kurkistan_
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« Reply #13 on: Today at 08:39:41 PM »

Um... Maybe I have an old version of the rules, but I thought you had to re-figure your AD when you changed actions.

Pg 180, PDF, V2: (Emphasis in Original)
Quote
2. DECLARE A NEW ACTION
Alternately, the player may declare a new action instead (the action declared
in Step 1 doesn’t happen). This is dangerous, as it costs the character precious
moments
and dramatically impacts his or her performance.

The character’s Action
Dice are immediately refigured for the new action
and halved (rounding up), and the character now goes at the very end of
the round (as if he or she has only 1 Action Die).
Defense Dice are what remains after this new action is taken, per the rules
described earlier in this section.


Each character may do this only once per round, and no character may do
this if their new action produces only 2 Action Dice
(as they would only have 1
die after their new total is halved, and that’s not enough to form a pool).

Example: Rather than go through with his attack on Carrow, Thorrow might
choose to help Koel take out the running guard, throwing his spear through
the wall (it’s only wood and he’s a Pewterarm). As this would be a new action,
Thorrow’s
Action Dice would be refigured — also to 12, as all the same factors
are in play for this alternate attack — and then halved, rounding up (to 6). The
throw would also occur at the end of the round.

EDIT: So if you, say, switch from using Pewter to have a pool of 10 to using Steel and having an initial pool of 4 in your new action, it seems that we might run into some problems.

EDIT 2: Clarified my initial EDIT to show that the Steel pool was new and before being halved.
« Last Edit: Today at 09:29:05 PM by Kurkistan_ » Logged
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