So uh... FC equipment?

[Albertorius]

Send them against heavily armored things and you'll see the difference.

I have... as GM, since my players are the ones that tend to be heavily armored ^_^. Problem is, they also have around a hundred hit points, so... well, the xbowers shoot once, plink them (if they hit at all, that is) and then die messily.

Also, a long bow with armor piercing standard arrows have AP6, which tend to be more than enough for that.

As I see it, with a crosbow you can use:

The only feats you can use with a bow that you can't use out of the box with a crossbow are Angry Hornet and Blackened Skies.

As mentioned you forgot Quick Draw. Also, Haste and Surge of Speed contribute. There's a number of routines that will let you fire a Hand Crossbow (or a pair of them) multiple times a round or a regular crossbow once a round. It's even possible to fire a Heavy Crossbow once a round for a number of rounds.

All contribute, true. Those are also feats that you have to take to shoot  maybe once per turn instead of the feats you could have taken to shoot better twice, probably more each turn with a bow.

So, apparently a feat tax for having the gall of liking a crossbow better than a bow. Not optimal, TBH.

Plus, I agree that an upgrade reducing load by two is feasible. Same with an Essence that reduces Load by 2 and a Greater Essence that reduces it by 4. I also wouldn't allow telescopic scopes to be used on a normal crossbow.

That would be nice as a customization, but as essences... well, same as always: I would be taking a magical effect to reduce the drawback of the xbow instead of taking a magical effect to add to the potential of a bow (like a Feat, although there aren't too many essences really useful for ranged weapons)

Are you tracking ammo? Also, all of those arrows down range only matter if the archer can hit or overcome the target's armor.

Yes, we are... but the PCs have one of those bags of holding (Eberron campaign, it eemed wrong to take it away).

As for the other... well, yes, but you have to hit with the xbow, too, you know. The armor argument is valid, of course. It feels a bit too situational, though.
 

They need the AP, Range, or Threat advantage? They need a free hand? They need to be able to use it while prone?

So, you're agreeing that it is a very situational weapon, then? And that in other circunstances, you'll be better off with other one?

I mean, all those are true, up to a point (AP is only true for light and heavy xbow, the range is nice [although strange; I though that bows had better range than crossbows], Threat is only true for the heavy one, Free hand is only true for the hand crossbow [That don't have range, Threat or AP advantages], and you can shoot a Foot bow while Prone...), but very situational.

I don't know, it just feels that a PC (that, by definition, is going to have to face very varied oppositions and situations) is almost always better off with some kind of regular bow, and will be able to use his/her feat options in Feats that enhance their shooting instead than in Feats to be able to shoot once every turn.

I also think that had we kept the Brace action and allowed it only for black powder and crossbows this would have helped.

Afraid I can't really talk about that, as I don't know what it is ^^

[Mister Andersen]

Crossbows are really ideally suited to fighters who aren't going to invest in bow feats -- and for archers you're sending into narrow, cramped spaces.

[Albertorius]

Crossbows are really ideally suited to fighters who aren't going to invest in bow feats -- and for archers you're sending into narrow, cramped spaces.

Maybe. But how much better in those situations than fighters with hurl weapons? Hatchets, atlatls, chakrams, harpoons, javelins... all seem like quite good options for fighters.

Narrow and cramped spaces I can see, although reloading may still be problematic, and the crossbow's bow will limit you in the narrowness department.

[Mister Andersen]

Perhaps, but you'll be able to use it unlike regular bows or any other sort of hurled weapo.

Personally, I don't think crossbows should be able to benefit from the bow b/m/s chain at all; on their own, the crossbow's superior range is a good way to model the difference in the ease of use of the weapons for someone picking them up more or less for the first time. Using the feats to extend the number of range increments availabl to crossbow users doesn't sit well with me.

I think there needs to be a crossbow b/m/s chain.

[Bill Whitmore]

About the only thing I had to do to make it workable at my table was add an asterix to the Longbow entry, thus making it an exotic weapon.  This was the simplest way to simulate the need for longbowman to have extra training while not doing something that was going to gimp archer characters, because they are going to have the bow forte anyways.

There's something I find odd about these comparisons.  The Crossbow is supposed to be the simpler weapon for untrained people to use while the the Bow is the weapon of choice for highly trained individuals.  Why then are we comparing the feat counts of Bows vs Crossbows when feats represent the pinnacles of training?  Of course the Bow is going to win out once we start stacking heavy training towards its use.  Its supposed to.

Crossbows have their place.  The Heavy Crossbow is the weapon of choice for one of my characters, a Burglar, or as he calls himself, a "2nd-story specialist".  He fights predominantly in melee, but he usually opens with the first shot at range and then closes with the enemy.  For that single shot, the load doesn't matter and the 18-20 crit range can be awesome.

The 60' range is also nice for the utility of Climbing Arrows.  So long as I have the right quantity of rope, I can place the far end of the rope quite a bit further than I could with one of the bows.

The last reason I like the crossbow stems from something that isn't really covered in the rules, but was mentioned above.  I can fire the crossbow from a prone hiding position.  I'd be hard-pressed justifying shooting any bow from prone, save the Foot Bow.  It could also mean that I'd have a Defense bonus if they fired back because I was prone, but this particular character almost always goes first and closes on his target before they even react.

So for that character's purposes, the Crossbow works perfectly.  If I was making a dedicated shooter and investing feats into the build, the yea, bows are the better way to go.  As is, I fire once and forget it.  The Heavy Crossbow gives me the compact, high crit, long range weapon I want.

[Albertorius]

There's something I find odd about these comparisons.  The Crossbow is supposed to be the simpler weapon for untrained people to use while the the Bow is the weapon of choice for highly trained individuals.  Why then are we comparing the feat counts of Bows vs Crossbows when feats represent the pinnacles of training?  Of course the Bow is going to win out once we start stacking heavy training towards its use.  Its supposed to.

As far as I'm concerned, the problem is not, and never has been, that the bow vs. crossbow comparison is "how it should be" or "how is supposed to be"; the problem is that right now you just can't do a dedicated crossbower PC (dedicated as in "this xbow is my main weapon and I'm a badass with it" not as secondary weapon, first shot, or whatever) without hamstringing yourself just for stylistic reasons.

If a player tells me that s/he wants to play a specialized crossbower, I have to say him/her that a crossbow is for untrained rabble, and that if s/he wants to be a true ranged combatant, s/he must use a bow. I think that is a bit lame.

Crossbows have their place.  The Heavy Crossbow is the weapon of choice for one of my characters, a Burglar, or as he calls himself, a "2nd-story specialist".  He fights predominantly in melee, but he usually opens with the first shot at range and then closes with the enemy.  For that single shot, the load doesn't matter and the 18-20 crit range can be awesome.

The 60' range is also nice for the utility of Climbing Arrows.  So long as I have the right quantity of rope, I can place the far end of the rope quite a bit further than I could with one of the bows.

Both uses are nice, for someone that just wants an utility weapon and don't want to invest in feats or anything. Not so much for a dedicated shooter.

So for that character's purposes, the Crossbow works perfectly.  If I was making a dedicated shooter and investing feats into the build, the yea, bows are the better way to go.  As is, I fire once and forget it.  The Heavy Crossbow gives me the compact, high crit, long range weapon I want.

Agreed, then.

[paddyfool]

As far as I'm concerned, the problem is not, and never has been, that the bow vs. crossbow comparison is "how it should be" or "how is supposed to be"; the problem is that right now you just can't do a dedicated crossbower PC (dedicated as in "this xbow is my main weapon and I'm a badass with it" not as secondary weapon, first shot, or whatever) without hamstringing yourself just for stylistic reasons.

I would be tempted to homebrew a crossbow-specific feat or two, especially given how the benefit for Bow Supremacy, at least, seems a little wonky as standard.  But what benefits would you want a crossbow specialist to have which would be distinct from those of a longbow specialist or black powder specialist?

Perhaps something like this, given the potential for crossbows as a sniper's or ambush weapon:

Crossbow specialist
Requires: Bow Mastery
You really know how to make your shots hurt
Each round, the first bolt you fire with a crossbow gains the excruciating quality
Crossbow attack trick: Sniper's shot When making an attack with a crossbow against a flat-footed opponent, you may add 2d6 sneak attack damage.

Rationale: The trick is meant to be almost as good as Multishot for raw damage.  It also fits crossbows thematically, and if you crit you only have to activate it once.  The other benefit is much handier than the quality granted by Bow Supremacy, to the point of perhaps being a little OP and favours a different model of shooting to the "hail of arrows" that longbows tend towards.  An alternative might be to make Bullseye and Bow Basics the requirements instead, and have the bonus ability be to double any damage bonus gained from the Bullseye feat.  EDIT: Another alternative bonus might be to reduce the load property of any crossbows you use by 2, but I think the previously suggested homebrew gear upgrades or essences might work better for that.

NB: the heavy crossbow's longer range increment also translates into extra accuracy when you're delivering a crucial or expensive payload from a safe distance.  Whether it's a flaming bolt into a pool of whale-oil you've left for an advancing enemy to march into, or a bolt steeped in highly expensive poison you bought specially as a nasty surprise for a marauding dragon.

[Krensky]

About the only thing I had to do to make it workable at my table was add an asterix to the Longbow entry, thus making it an exotic weapon.  This was the simplest way to simulate the need for longbowman to have extra training while not doing something that was going to gimp archer characters, because they are going to have the bow forte anyways.

I endorse this as well.

As for those unfamiliar...

Brace was a standard action in SC2.0 that complemented Aim. You limited your arc of fire and took a penalty to Reflex saves to raise your Initiative (SC2.0 initiative worked differently), gain a bonus to strength (countering recoil) and a +1 to hit. Now, as written it doesn't convert because FC doesn't have recoil or fluid initiative (*sniff*) but as a concept I think it would have helped.

[mach1.9pants]

In other news:

Stress damage for rapiers FTW!

[aegis]

I must say I really like the treatment the razor received and I was kind of disappointed that the rapier didn't get it too. Is there any reason other than possibly balance? 

Regarding the crossbow, I agree with the fact that feats are irrelevant since it's not the point of this weapon. But it's good to know that the Bow chain applies as well. Still, I like Sletchman's simple quality and I believe I'll keep on using that instead of making bows exotic weapons.