Back to Crafty Games Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
December 19, 2014, 05:08:54 AM
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Welcome to the Crafty Games Forums!

Note to New Members: To combat spam, we have instituted new rules: you must post 5 replies to existing threads before you can create new threads.

+  Crafty Games Forum
|-+  Products
| |-+  Mistborn Adventure Game
| | |-+  The biggest problem I have with the system.
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] Go Down Print
Author Topic: The biggest problem I have with the system.  (Read 6980 times)
Aminar
Agent
***
Posts: 153



View Profile
« Reply #45 on: September 04, 2012, 03:47:46 PM »

Thanks.  I thought it sounded like a fun way to handle things.  It breaks down at higher levels, but only if you get caught up in the numbers and no the tallies.  Plus it sounds like you're buying things in The Name of the Wind.

I should note that this system should only be used in a campaign where the focus is thieving and obtaining money.  Otherwise stick to the simpler system.  It's intent is to allow other kinds of storylines, not modify the balance the creators gave the game.  It makes Resources a much more important stat, but allows it to increase rapidly so players will be likely to pick much lower starting resources stats.  I should also note that given my system resources onlay applies to starting props and everything else from there on in is purchased but stays after breathers.   
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 03:50:59 PM by Aminar » Logged
ZetaStriker
Jr. Agent
**
Posts: 78




View Profile
« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2012, 01:04:34 PM »

I'd amend your system by combining yours and SirJerric's comments. Keep the resources score as a part of the character, and calculate their wealth separately via your tally system. They spend tallies the way you describe, but always roll their actual Resources stat for the bartering rolls. This will better reflect the relationship between their wealth and their skill at spending it. Someone with Resources 2 and the equivalent of 8 and 5 might spend most of his fortune hiring a group of sellswords that ripped him off, while someone more affluent might hire a mercenary group rather cheaply. It makes more sense and leaves less of the spending up to luck.
Logged
Aminar
Agent
***
Posts: 153



View Profile
« Reply #47 on: September 06, 2012, 11:12:55 PM »

That half ruins the system...  Mainly because in many ways that should be a combination charm wits influence resources roll.   The resources stat at that point is really thriftiness-the ability to hold onto and wisely use money.  Perhaps making the player lose a tally a day while beyond their base resources...   Yes...  definitely adding that. 

As to your suggestion.  It makes sense as a game mechanic...  It makes sense balance wise.  I can see it.  A good plan.  I see logical issues but it makes sense.
Logged
Red-Hat
Crafty n00b

Posts: 4


View Profile
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2012, 05:42:30 PM »

Here's a simple enough notion:

Resources is a Standing - it's about your place in society, not how much you have.  So let's rename it market - it's more about your connections in that specific area, which makes it the sales and acquisitions variation upon Influence.  Use Resources, then, to be more about tracking purchasing power.  When you make a Market roll, and fail, you lose a die and the amount of Resources it will take to get what you want is increased.  I'd suggest, in this method, that Resources should still be on a similar track, and especially large scores, like stealing an atium cache, might instead become plot items - because otherwise, they're really the end of such a campaign anyways.  And trying to track boxings and clippings directly would be REALLY unfair to Coinshots.  If the team gets to Resources 10 (keeping in mind that they had to spend some Resources on the job they just ran), it's time to consider changing the narrative a bit because at that point they're set.

As for the loss of items with Long Breathers, is there really any reason not to completely ignore that for anything that isn't incriminating?  IE, you need to ditch your disguises, sure, because it''s a problem should anyone find them.  But that doesn't mean you have to get rid of your new dueling cane that you got to help sell your cover.  You can also redefine the length of a Long Breather (you may not like DnD, but that's basically the number on fix for pacing issues raised by 4th's Short/Extended Rest mechanic).

And if you think that you don't have an array of villains to work with with just the gangs, noble houses, and TLR, consider Shadowrun.  You have the Corporate Court at the top - the Lord Ruler.  Then the Megacorps - so, let's say that there's division and infighting in the Steel Ministry, and the different factions are your Megacorps.  The actual direct governing body of a city/dominance/whatever is the government - powerful there, but not beyond their borders and still having to answer to the CC/TRL.  Nobles not directly in charge, then, become analogous to the international criminal organizations that are a fixture to Shadowrun (you really ought to stay off their radar), and the Skaa gangs to the street level gangs (get out of their city, or even to a more affluent part of that city, and your safe - and you can play them against each other; they can still be a pretty serious threat if you're in their territory).  They're only as homogeneous as you let them be.

All that said, I'm seeing a lot of "I write"...  What about the rest of the table?  This is a collaborative game, they're writing the story too.  You don't put the story in front of them and see what they do - you come up with a job, or some task that must be faced.  The story evolves out of how they choose to approach it, the Complications you choose to add, the interaction between their Heroes and your Villains, and how they respond to the Turning Points involved - and in the case of players with characters of high Spirit, the editing they choose to do (perfect for instituting heist tropes).  In fact, try a different structure.  Rather than trying to encapsulate everything into one single session, let them do some planning OUTSIDE of the session - either by laying out the next target before the session ends, or by putting that up online (Google Docs would work wonderfully for this purpose, and lets them plan things out together).  Try to get your head wrapped a little bit more around the collaborative concept - it has a way of drawing people in more, too.
Logged
Aminar
Agent
***
Posts: 153



View Profile
« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2012, 09:16:35 AM »

The collaborative section does not work for every group.  And the specific problem I've been having is that the kind of stories possible to set for the party_ the session hooks- are limited in ways that writing for the style of players I typically have is hard.  As a narrator part of my job is world/city creation and part is session hooks.  The players decide what to do from there but when the players realize what they want to do holds almost no benefit then the players get unhappy and bored.
My problems came from a campaign I tried to run, not idle speculation. 

As to shadowrun.  I hate shadowrun.  Stupid overcomplicated system where 3/4 of every session is trying to figure out what the rules and difficulty are for random little things.  Next to no party cohesion because half the party is noncombatants.  Mages are stupid powerful.  And the whole time all the players feel helpless anyway because understanding the whole system takes as much research as a PHD thesis.

Lastly I understand the principle behind cooperative RPGs but unless you have a very dedicated group full coop takes time to build as the players all work things out, grow into the world, and learn to work together.  As I've said, these are all early game issues.

And renaming the stat doesn't make theft a more useful tool.  It doesn't fix the problem I'm having.  It just brushes it aside.  Not constructive.
Logged
Red-Hat
Crafty n00b

Posts: 4


View Profile
« Reply #50 on: September 16, 2012, 01:03:04 AM »

The collaborative section does not work for every group.  And the specific problem I've been having is that the kind of stories possible to set for the party_ the session hooks- are limited in ways that writing for the style of players I typically have is hard.  As a narrator part of my job is world/city creation and part is session hooks.  The players decide what to do from there but when the players realize what they want to do holds almost no benefit then the players get unhappy and bored.
My problems came from a campaign I tried to run, not idle speculation.
 

Right, but if you solve that core problem, it will be a lot easier to bring them in - and you can use the consequences of the actions they choose as your hooks further on.

As to shadowrun.  I hate shadowrun.  Stupid overcomplicated system where 3/4 of every session is trying to figure out what the rules and difficulty are for random little things.  Next to no party cohesion because half the party is noncombatants.  Mages are stupid powerful.  And the whole time all the players feel helpless anyway because understanding the whole system takes as much research as a PHD thesis.

Cumbersome though the system may be, I wasn't making a system point - if you take a reductionist approach, the setting of Shadowrun is exactly as small as you say the setting of Mistborn is.  I'm merely suggesting taking the reverse approach - let's call it expansionist - to make the Mistborn setting more diverse and complex.

Lastly I understand the principle behind cooperative RPGs but unless you have a very dedicated group full coop takes time to build as the players all work things out, grow into the world, and learn to work together.  As I've said, these are all early game issues.

It's true that one of the big early game challenges for a cooperative game from the game runner standpoint is to help bring the group together.  Unfortunately, that's just an issue with this STYLE of game, so I'm not really sure there's a way to fix it that would even be worth it.

And renaming the stat doesn't make theft a more useful tool.  It doesn't fix the problem I'm having.  It just brushes it aside.  Not constructive.

Right, but it you go back and look at the whole idea (and I may not have been sufficiently clear), notice that I actually break it into two pieces - the amount that you have, Resources (now separate from Attributes and Standings, and gained entirely from the proceeds of jobs and such), and your ability to efficiently leverage those resources, your Market Standing.  It's not simply renaming it.  You then gain Resources from thieving, but as mentioned a word of caution should be applied that it will eventually stop being an effective way to drive the game unless you REALLY press them hard on the Resources it takes to run a job (which will start to make it feel less like it's worth doing).

The core nature of your problem relates to what's referred to as agency - a game design term that simply stated refers to the players' perceived control and influence that they're able to exert via in-game decisions.  As it's a matter of perception, this can be a tricky thing - you can have 100 options, but if the one thing the player wants to do isn't one of those options, agency is harmed.  In this case, as there's no real reward for SIMPLY thieving, it feels like a false choice and thus harms agency when the players decide to do that.  And that's precisely the problem I'm trying to fix - with the change I'm suggesting, the players would feel more in control.  They get Resources from their thievery, which they can then use for short term benefits, to make the next job easier, make a particular Scheme possible (IE, it may take a lot of money to pull off a Scheme that depends on establishing oneself as a wealthy noble as part of a long con), and so on.  But by focusing solely on that, they'll make the plight of the Skaa worse, in addition to making a lot of enemies and precious few allies.  Thus, it's a decision with weight.
Logged
Aminar
Agent
***
Posts: 153



View Profile
« Reply #51 on: September 16, 2012, 09:40:52 AM »

Adding a stat throws off the whole balance of character creation.  That is a function I have no interest in messing with as Mistborn has the simplest most elegant character creation ever.

Back to shadowrun.  Shadowrun happens on earth.  A place we are all intimately familiar with and which possesses substantial mythology to draw from.  There are hundreds of cultures that can be researched and easily incorporated into the world in addition to the trolls, elves, dwarves, etc.  Scadriel has 4 novels and a short story.  Earth has millenia of history, myth, and legend.  There just isn't the same level of possible extrapolation potential.
Logged
Red-Hat
Crafty n00b

Posts: 4


View Profile
« Reply #52 on: September 17, 2012, 07:55:22 PM »

Adding a stat throws off the whole balance of character creation.  That is a function I have no interest in messing with as Mistborn has the simplest most elegant character creation ever.

Right, I should have been more clear about that.  The idea is that what Resources become ceases to be a part of character creation - you start with a set amount, period.  For the feel you want, a low amount.

At this point, Resources ceases to be an intrinsic part of the character - while preserving the third standing as Market - and is thus entirely earned as a reward from Heists but ALSO spent to conduct heists and for a number of other purposes.  New!Resources doesn't regen automatically, it has to be earned back.

Back to shadowrun.  Shadowrun happens on earth.  A place we are all intimately familiar with and which possesses substantial mythology to draw from.  There are hundreds of cultures that can be researched and easily incorporated into the world in addition to the trolls, elves, dwarves, etc.  Scadriel has 4 novels and a short story.  Earth has millenia of history, myth, and legend.  There just isn't the same level of possible extrapolation potential.

Yeah, but amounts of mythology don't have anything to do with what I'm getting at there.  At all.  I was getting more at the political lines, international and local criminal groups, and so on - you don't have to base these things on real examples; Shadowrun just does that for verisimilitude.  You don't need mythology to have variety.  I'm trying to point out how you can use the things that are already in the setting - no direct addition on your part required - and give them a dynamic that creates a lot of variety by making similar things much more distinct from one another.

Though, an Aztec-y secret Hemalurgical cult would be kind of awesome...
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 07:57:15 PM by Red-Hat » Logged
Aminar
Agent
***
Posts: 153



View Profile
« Reply #53 on: September 17, 2012, 09:26:39 PM »

In essence your plan is what I already did but more disparate from the original system.  I like resources being part of character creation.  It has a more natural feel as far as social class goes. I feel I've got a pretty elegant system down, something that makes thieving possible without breaking the game.  Even more so when all rolls are made at the base resources level or lower as suggested. 

Resources as a stat covers lots of things.  What it really comes down to is a credit score.  Stealing is a way to bypass that credit scores limitations by increasing the amount that can be thrown at a problem.  Pretty simple, and shouldn't unbalance anything hugely.  In addition it lets Feruchemists game casino's with stored luck.

As to the shadowrun analogy, using as an example of what I could do is legitimate but never going to work.  I've never seen a Shadowrun game I liked.  The writing options of fighting corporations were never fun.  It always felt stupid that a few characters could challenge a multibillion dollar companies security.  And even then, the whole point of Shadowrun is to get payed to get more gear to do cooler stuff....  Mercenary work.  It's hard to do mercenary work when getting paid doesn't happen... 
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!