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Author Topic: The biggest problem I have with the system.  (Read 5730 times)
Aminar
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« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2012, 07:31:29 PM »

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In response to A:
Next to no antagonists? I know I tried to address this concern before, but I'll give it another shot. Just as stories set in the Star Wars universe are not limited to killing Imperial Stormtroopers and commanding officers and taking down the Emperor and Vader (as much fun as that is), Mistborn stories are not limited to killing Steel Ministry Obligators and House nobles and taking down the Lord Ruler. I think most settings can be reduced down to a handful of types of antagonists, they are just given differing personalities and abilities to make them seem unique. For example, while D&D as a setting has a plethora (I love íThree Amigos!) of monsters to choose from, many are just variations on the monsters that the heroes have already overcome. A lot of it can come down to description.

Star Wars is a bad example here.  There is so much more shown and to Star Wars than there is to Scadriel.  If I could throw in the whole Cosmere as seen it still wouldn't match the breadth shown in the Original Star Wars Trilogy.  There are lots of stories, but many of them will be repeats of the same old thing.  I know Mistbrn stories on an individual level aren't just deal with TLR, but any story arc worth a damn in the mepire leads there because he is the only problem, or at least the only solution to the multitude of problems.

Additionally, there are lots of different types of conflicts and not all of them are physical. Gambling, racing, smuggling, long cons, smear campaigns, etc. They don't provide a "villain-of-the-week" in the book, but give you the tools to create your own. One Obligator might have a penchant for a game of shelldry; another might look out for orphan skaa children, but relentlessly persecute his skaa servants. How about a Steel Inquisitor that never runs anywhere. Instead, his heavy walk telegraphs his coming. He knows you can (and will) run away, but likes serving as a reminder that you will never truly escape. He believes your death is inevitable.

In response to B:
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If you want to permanently acquire wealth and cool stuff, you buy it with advancements. The rules are there. Now, if you want to be able to keep every last thing you pick up (regardless of relevance to the story at hand), you're right, the rules don't support it. And neither does the story the rules are based off of. Do any of the heroes count coins? They want more wealth, but aren't scrimping and saving every last boxing and clip to do so.

Part of the disconnect for me comes from past experiences with RPGs, where I amassed money (whether gold or credits or some other form of currency). Of course, with that mindset I also had to account for money spent on food, lodging, and all of my gear (including repairs!), which I happily don't have to deal with in this game. I can understand the appeal it might have for some people, so it certainly isn't badwrongfun to do so, but I also don't miss the extra bookkeeping. Remember, this is supposed to be a narrative and rather rules-light game. I think that the rules support that playstyle better by cutting back on counting coin or keeping track of everything your character has ever picked up.

The problem here is again, the fact the characters are a thieving crew.  They steal things.  Shouldn't they be able to steal things in game.
Quote
In response to C:
What did Kelsier's thieving crew steal in the novels? I don't remember thieving to be anything more than the method they used to further their goals, and not that the crew amassed fortunes or a whole lot of stuff that they used from then on. Again, this feels more like expectations set based on other RPGs where such actions are encouraged, if not necessary for PC survival.
Think about Kel's backstory.  For at least a decade he led people in huge and outrageous heists.  Brilliant ones that led to his eventual publishable story arc.  RPG's should be starting there.  When he formed his first Crew as a Crew Leader.  That is where Mistborn's story starts.  We don't see it but the RPG should allow it.  
Quote
In response to D:
I think this ties in with the desire to count coin (See response to B). Long breathers make it so that you don't have to track every last coin and piece of inventory every player has accrued in the game. I find it similar to the Panache and Prudence aspects of Lifestyle in Fantasy Craft. It is expected that your character spends some money during downtime. In the case of Mistings and Mistborn, it means that they also replenish their vials. So it is not just about losing what they've acquired, it is about returning to the state of having what they expect to need or at least what they typically have on their person.
It's about my writing style.  I do things years apart at times.  The characters have lives outside of their in campaign antics.  I find this makes the characters more comfortable and developed.  It also allows for alot of narrative leeway. In Mistborn this is a punishment to the players and an unsupported Story Structure-Something I think all RPG's should avoid.

Quote
In response to E:
I fail to see how other stories can't be told. I brought up Star Wars before. Just because the main story the game is based on follows a particular pattern doesn't mean that all stories told in the setting must follow that same pattern (though Joseph Campbell might disagree with me on that one... Wink). I guess I just see a setting oozing with potential for all kinds of stories. I'll try to provide some examples after lunch.
Other Stories can be told.  Their natural arcs however, all lead to one place.  Killing TLR.  IN addition the system and world conspire to hinder a large number of story types and structures.
Little stories with little goals don't work well.
Heist stories don't work well unless they follow the same formula used in the books.
Stories in cities other than Luthadel don't work well because next to nothing is known about said cities.
Stories after the main story don't work well because we know very little about how the society held together other than who the new head honcho was.
Stories before the main story don't work well because they break in game continuity.
Stories about gangs don't work well because the typical goals of a gang aren't available or are super low risk.

I feel railroaded in how I can DM this system and it is my natural inclination to buck railroading as hard as I can.  I don't want to count coppers but I sure as hell want to run a Heist using Mistborn because that is the single best story arc for the world as a whole, but it doesn't work in the system.  I want to be able to run simple one shots that are Heists.  But the motivation just isn't there.  Think about what motivates Gamers.

Cool Stuff-Every MMO is filled with people trying to get the biggest baddest gear.
T&A-I avoid this in my games.
Random Slaughter-GTA-I avoid this as well.
Save the World-I don't run these stories on a big obvious level.  When My heroes save the world they're probably going to keep their mouths shut so nobody figures out the world almost ended and people don't panic.  That style doesn't work under a dictatorship though.
To Create something cool.  That's the goal of all games I run.  To create cool memories for my friends.  I feel like I can't do that in a way the books don't do better.  It's why i avoid duplicating storylines from books.  

Again, I know why the decisions were made but I feel railroaded by it.  I don't necessarily want my players counting every copper.   I do want them to be able to accrue wealth in a feasible way without it overpowering the game.  In Mistborn that doesn't seem to work...  But damn it I have so many cool heists I could create for the players if there was a purpose behind those heists.

And there are no rules for acquiring unique character props.  There is nothing for the Thug who adores his Koloss sword or the Blacksmith that designed an aluminum alloy sword that can't be pulled or pushed but can keep its shape.  There's nothing for the Kandra who goes to the mausoleum and stores bones because in the end that storage means nothing, despite the fact he works hard to steal them for his own reasons.  There is nothing for characters that do want to count coppers, that do care about wealth.  I understand the Mistborn Caste didn't care, but why restrict players from character concepts that do?  
What about Kel's stick of the Eleventh Metal?  It isn't a prop.  The first time he took a couple days off it should have gone away because it "wasn't important"  Items can be important.  Just include a designation for it.  A note on why the items disappears, The game book mentions non-prop acquisitions disappear at long breathers like three times and never goes into any detail on it.  No Why.  No, Keep items of importance around though.  Nothing.

Please, stop telling me I'm wrong and start telling me well, why don't you try this way to fix it.  Start helping constructively or please please please don't post.  I'm not trying to be convinced away from this system.  I'm not trying to put down the system.  I'm looking for help to make other styles of story work.  I'm looking for advice.  I'm tempted to just homebrew up a set of stats for the crew itself.  Give it a few stats_Likely the three standings and reputation.  At least then damage done to someones resources score can get added to the crews funds and players can roll off of that as an option.  It allows some extra use on social conflicts as well and the party has a certain amount of luck.  Now how to work out those stats.  I would think the average of the party Plus 2 to a maximum of the highest in the party.  Then the party will gain advancement along with the players that they can spend on those stats.  Nble houses would have something similar.  It could easily simulate an real economy.  Hmmmmmm.  I like this idea.  

Either way, this isn't a constructive discussion the way its heading.  We've said the same things half a dozen times apiece and neither is being swayed.  Lets look for constructive workarounds instead of trying to convince each other there is or isn't a problem.  Because damn it I will have maturity on the internet.  It is my DUTY.  Heheh I said duty.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 07:48:29 PM by Aminar » Logged
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« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2012, 11:38:11 PM »

*snip*

Please, stop telling me I'm wrong and start telling me well, why don't you try this way to fix it.  Start helping constructively or please please please don't post.

*snip*

Either way, this isn't a constructive discussion the way its heading.  We've said the same things half a dozen times apiece and neither is being swayed.  Lets look for constructive workarounds instead of trying to convince each other there is or isn't a problem.  Because damn it I will have maturity on the internet.  It is my DUTY.  Heheh I said duty.

While I don't remember ever telling you that you're wrong, and as much as I tried to constructively address your concerns, I'll leave the parts of your post that I disagree with alone and instead focus on your request. To me, all of your troubles appear to revolve around the thought of losing equipment with long breathers and the difficulty in coming up with stories that don't ultimately end up focusing on killing the Lord Ruler. Is that a fair summary?

For the long breather issue, simply ignore the part about losing gear that hasn't been turned into a prop. If you decide to go this route, I would also recommend ignoring the part about getting props back at the end of a long breather. In fact, you could probably just ignore all of the rules regarding props and have a standard inventory. What are the potential hiccups? Well, buying equipment with Resources or Influence checks would work as written, but selling equipment to gain Resources or Influence might be a little trickier. It was suggested earlier that circumstance dice could be used to supplement Resources rolls until the Narrator decides that the extra money is spent, but that might require more fiat than some might be comfortable with. Alternatively, the Resources standing could be scrapped entirely, but that sounds like a lot of work will need to be spent developing prices for goods and services.

As to the setting issue of the Lord Ruler dominating stories? Kill him off. He's getting in the way of fun, so remove him. How? I'm a fan of villains dying because of betrayal, so have a group of Steel Inquisitors do it. Ruin couldn't control the Lord Ruler as the puppet it desired and finally managed to dominate a group of Steel Inquisitors long enough to have them turn on the Lord Ruler and kill him. While all of the noble houses bicker about filling the power vacuum created, they make relatively easy marks for your heists.
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« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2012, 04:14:15 AM »

I have never perceived Mistborn RPG to be one for long, epic campaigns in which the heroes become *heroes* in the classical sense. You are probably right if you say that the set of conceivable options for such groups is very limited.

I think Mistborn works well for more low-level, down-to-earth things. Set up a story in a middle-sized town somewhere. Have the group get there and try to take control of the mob from some group that is backed by the "Italians" in Luthadel. The whole Final Empire thing is the background: they can't be too obvious or else the Ministry descends upon them. Depending on their radius of action, they may very well encounter (or even (ab)use) Kandra and Koloss. But the real villians here are the normal people they are in conflict with. Intense bad and good can happen on a small scale: do we kill this mob boss's daughter? Do we stand by and watch our people rape this girl or do we make more enemies? Do we step up and protect one of our thug's family from the noble the thug pissed off? There is plenty of stories possible here -- if you don't aim for the world-shattering stuff.

Of course, not every GM or group will want that.
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Aminar
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« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2012, 10:18:45 AM »

No, my biggest problem is that my thieving crew can't be a thieving crew.  The primary goal of a thieving crew is to steal money with which to live on.  Instead there is a stat that counts as a fixed income.  There is no, we 'Need this heist or we're not eating, making small scale thieving crews difficult to motivate.  There is no large scale thieving crew looking to get so rich they can buy a small Island and disappear.  There is no thieving in the classical sense of thieving. Greed can't be a motivator.  Nor can basic survival short of me giving everybody in the party resources 2 and saying steal until you have enough of a bonus to eat and pay rent.  Those are the kinds of things Skaa thieving Crews worry about.  But that doesn't work with a fixed income setting and it isn't fun that way either.  But it can be a ton of fun to see a campaign run that way.  What it comes down to is that the stories that work best for the setting don't work for the system. 

(I've tried the low level thing.  It doesn't work...  The characters are too powerful starting out. 

I'm sorry if you didn't feel you were telling me I was wrong, but you were constantly defending the system in such a way that made it feel that way.  None of my points are logically unsound.  There are certainly ways to run campaigns in the setting or it wouldn't be a system.  There just isn't a way for me to write mine.  That is utterly infuriating.  I'm sure you can understand that.
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« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2012, 11:37:40 AM »

I'm sorry if you didn't feel you were telling me I was wrong, but you were constantly defending the system in such a way that made it feel that way.  None of my points are logically unsound.  There are certainly ways to run campaigns in the setting or it wouldn't be a system.  There just isn't a way for me to write mine.  That is utterly infuriating.  I'm sure you can understand that.

Apology accepted! Wink

No, my biggest problem is that my thieving crew can't be a thieving crew.  The primary goal of a thieving crew is to steal money with which to live on.  Instead there is a stat that counts as a fixed income.  There is no, we 'Need this heist or we're not eating, making small scale thieving crews difficult to motivate.  There is no large scale thieving crew looking to get so rich they can buy a small Island and disappear.  There is no thieving in the classical sense of thieving. Greed can't be a motivator.  Nor can basic survival short of me giving everybody in the party resources 2 and saying steal until you have enough of a bonus to eat and pay rent.  Those are the kinds of things Skaa thieving Crews worry about.  But that doesn't work with a fixed income setting and it isn't fun that way either.  But it can be a ton of fun to see a campaign run that way.  What it comes down to is that the stories that work best for the setting don't work for the system.

So the types of stories you want to narrate include stealing to be able to afford to eat/survive (kind of a morally justifiable reason to steal) and the big score that the PCs can retire on, neither of which are easily accomplished in the current system. Is that a fair approximation of your concerns?

Well, it sounds like the Resources Standing is the crux of your dilemma. What happens if we remove it? Scadrial's system of currency will need to be codified into Boxings and Clips. How much should things cost? I would start at the cost of a meal and go from there. Maybe one or two clips?
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« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2012, 11:47:57 AM »

I'm sorry if you didn't feel you were telling me I was wrong, but you were constantly defending the system in such a way that made it feel that way.  None of my points are logically unsound.  There are certainly ways to run campaigns in the setting or it wouldn't be a system.  There just isn't a way for me to write mine.  That is utterly infuriating.  I'm sure you can understand that.

Apology accepted! Wink

No, my biggest problem is that my thieving crew can't be a thieving crew.  The primary goal of a thieving crew is to steal money with which to live on.  Instead there is a stat that counts as a fixed income.  There is no, we 'Need this heist or we're not eating, making small scale thieving crews difficult to motivate.  There is no large scale thieving crew looking to get so rich they can buy a small Island and disappear.  There is no thieving in the classical sense of thieving. Greed can't be a motivator.  Nor can basic survival short of me giving everybody in the party resources 2 and saying steal until you have enough of a bonus to eat and pay rent.  Those are the kinds of things Skaa thieving Crews worry about.  But that doesn't work with a fixed income setting and it isn't fun that way either.  But it can be a ton of fun to see a campaign run that way.  What it comes down to is that the stories that work best for the setting don't work for the system.

So the types of stories you want to narrate include stealing to be able to afford to eat/survive (kind of a morally justifiable reason to steal) and the big score that the PCs can retire on, neither of which are easily accomplished in the current system. Is that a fair approximation of your concerns?

Well, it sounds like the Resources Standing is the crux of your dilemma. What happens if we remove it? Scadrial's system of currency will need to be codified into Boxings and Clips. How much should things cost? I would start at the cost of a meal and go from there. Maybe one or two clips?

Those are examples.  I want to tell stories like what made kel Famous.  I want to tell stories that feel Like Lies of Locke Lamora.  I want to tell stories that feel like living in constant fear of the Obligators, of hiding from the evil society above, and of wishing someday to be able to fight back or escape but needing to scrimp and save and build and learn and lie and cheat and steal to get there.  

yes the resources stat is the big problem for thieving crew stories.  but I don't want to cut it.  that imbalances character creation, HP, and a host of other things.  I've looked at it...  What I want is to be able to convert things other than advancement into resources.  I want a better bonus system for thefts.  (So many I wants...  I feel spoiled.).  I've rarely seen players start over 4 resources, which is midclass Skaa.  I half worked on a couple options up higher...  I guess the place to start would be working out what kind of income every resources level suggests.  And starting at the cost of a meal is a good place for that.  As is cutting down on resources regeneration rate...  Hmmm..I'm gonna have to sit with pen and paper for a bit hashing this out but not today.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 11:53:30 AM by Aminar » Logged
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« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2012, 01:29:17 PM »

Ok, as i said, lets agree to disagree.Now, to see if there're some options


Those are examples.  I want to tell stories like what made kel Famous.  I want to tell stories that feel Like Lies of Locke Lamora.  I want to tell stories that feel like living in constant fear of the Obligators, of hiding from the evil society above, and of wishing someday to be able to fight back or escape but needing to scrimp and save and build and learn and lie and cheat and steal to get there. 

yes the resources stat is the big problem for thieving crew stories.  but I don't want to cut it.  that imbalances character creation, HP, and a host of other things.  I've looked at it...  What I want is to be able to convert things other than advancement into resources.  I want a better bonus system for thefts.  (So many I wants...  I feel spoiled.).  I've rarely seen players start over 4 resources, which is midclass Skaa.  I half worked on a couple options up higher...  I guess the place to start would be working out what kind of income every resources level suggests.  And starting at the cost of a meal is a good place for that.  As is cutting down on resources regeneration rate...  Hmmm..I'm gonna have to sit with pen and paper for a bit hashing this out but not today.


Love some Locke Lamora.  Grin

Do you play Spycraft? In  the Big Score they proposed 3 different ways to deal with this kind of things, and maybe they could be used as a base to work something out for this system. I will check it out when i go back home.

I also think that eliminating Resources is not a good idea, but maybe it can be re-skinned somehow. So far, the equipment list is not very extense, so using it as a base to develop some prices would be a good start...

Also, thinking about Advancements... maybe you could use that. Add another step to the Scheme Development, What can you gain? According to the problems the scheme implies, maybe you could give it an Advancement Prize Rate... It the Heist they are planning is very big and convoluted (lets steal the Vellagio!) it has an APR of
10, with each APV equal to XXX boxings...

Dont know if it makes sense...

(by the way, I found out in the annotations that the proper name its Imperials. Boxings is the name common people give it to them , because there's a graphic of Kredik Shaw in it, a "box")
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« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2012, 03:53:06 PM »

I spent some time thinking on why the resources state here bothers me when it struck me as so brilliant in Dresden.  Dresden takes place in the modern day.  The characters have jobs and paydays making a roll to see if they have the money at the time fit reality well.  Stealing a sufficient amount creates an aspect that grants +2 on any resources roll but can be tagged by cops and the like as well. 

Mistborn has very different pacing than Dresden.  It tends to work on a scale of a few days at a time and every day inexplicably gives money instead of requiring the players to balance their resources...  I think reworking the system a little to differentiate resources from spirit and influence could go a long way to making the system feel more reasonable.  Allow characters to rapidly build wealth but allow it to run out as well.  But have a base level that their steady income or credit rotates around.  (Which is also where their HP sits.  )  Ill jot some mkre thoughts down.
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« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2012, 04:42:27 PM »

I've got an idea that might work.  We stick with a starting resources score the same as normal.
Resources 2is 10 imperials.  From there every time a character obtains boxings they set their adjusted score.  So if a party scores 30000 a piece-a huge score...  Then the character sets his score to 5 and 3.  The 3 is a tally placed by the score.  Every time the character makes a rresources roll they drop a tally.  So my test roll was a character at 5 and 3 trying to hire a Kandra.  It took him 9 rolls.  3 at 5 and 6 at 4.  This put him at 4 and 3.  To get that Kandra he spent 27000 imperials.  
A characters resources replenish at a score of 1 tally every day so long as their current adjusted score is below their base score.  So our resources 2 hero only recovers 1 imperial a day while a character with resources 6 gets back 10000 a day as long as they haven't spent down past 5 and 1.  I think that while this incourages repeated rolling. it does allow for money to be spent effectively.  My only worry is that it makes getting what you want easy and expensive because it allows too many rolls in some ways.  Im not sure what to do with that...  At the same time an average resources of 3 makes it seem less broken. It just means the wealthy can get anything they need if they throw enough money at it...  Which can be troubling and kind of unbalanced.  But Hey.  Kelly circa book 1 has resources 6 and he could afford a Kandra  pretty easily...  Thoughts?

In a way it makes resources rolls more of a sure you can have that but how much will it cost kinda thing.  And it makes keeping Allomancers in Metals quite a bit easier as one of the things my party hated was running out of metals and then failing two rolls due to bad luck and being unable to purchase them.

It does discourage thieving past a certain point as well.  How often do you get a score that can raise somebodies income by over 100000 boxings.  You'll never steal up to rank 6.  You might get a loan up that high but past a certain point its all advancement and shoving money at a problem until you succeed.

Lastly I'm unsure how to work bribes and especially acquiring forces into this.  Bribes should be fine but it makes gaining soldiers a bit too easy.  Anybody with rank 7 will almost always have the Max number of soldiers at their back and can easily manage a huge chunk of bodyguards.... My test run had a resources 7 character spend justover 90 percent of his fortune to hire an army the size of Oshkosh WI.  64900 soldiers.  A part of me doesn't see that being All that outlandish.  But it sure as hell makes resources powerful.  I think first the spender must set a goal.  If they fail the goal they have to try again.  So if the guy went for regiments he'd have managed 6000 soldierswhile if he went for Army's he'd have hired 40000ish.  But he'd have failed more rolls...  

At resources 10 using the aim for a number method the character managed to get.215000 soldiers.  That number is huge but they spent 999,900,000 imperials to do it and it takes a minimum of 40 days to regain that wealth assuming breathers don't affect resources.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 05:33:00 PM by Aminar » Logged
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« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2012, 12:17:48 AM »

One of the aspects that I did not really grasp right off is that in the Mistborn system, the numbers on a character sheet are not simply how much you have, but how good you are at applying what you have.

A character with Physique 4 is not automatically smaller or less buff than a character with Physique 6, but is less athletic. Physique is about training and skilled application; to limit it describing how much your biceps bulge is to miss the point.

In the novels, consuming pure Lerasium will make you an extraordinarily powerful Mistborn, yet in the rules, you will find that it only grants a rating of 5 in all metals. Why? It isn't just for balancing.

Quote from: Mistborn, on pages 143 and 145
"Every action we take has consequences, Vin,"  Kelsier said. "I've found that in both Allomancy and life, the person who can best judge the consequences of their actions will be the most successful."

"This is the great art of Allomancy, Vin. Knowing how much, or how little, you will move when you burn steel or iron will give you a major advantage over your opponents."

Atium is really expensive, yet the rules allow a character with Resources 2 to buy a bead of Atium. Why? Because, like everything else on the character sheet, this is not only a measure of how much your character has, but also a measure of your skills in mercantile pursuits.

Is all of the above a biased justification of the rulebook that may have nothing to do with the authors' concepts? Of course. But I, in my biased viewpoint, think it makes a good explanation for the choices made in the system.

If you wish to pursue a story structure with greater detail on the things that the character has, you will probably do better to leave the Resources standing in character creation as is. Just adjust the definition to be only your skills in shrewd bargains, careful bribes, and tightly worded contracts. Outcomes and difficulties will inform the Narrator as to how much the character spent, or how good a deal they managed to broker. Complications can cause temporary die loss in contests, representing a significant bartering flub, allowing others to take advantage comprising information ("Your desperation has made you sweat, and the merchant noticed. That glint in his eye is making you worried."). Spending a Resources point will be a special event, more of a damage to your public negotiating position, since the size of your wallet will be represented elsewhere.

Using the above should allow you to retain most of the basic, narrative-focused mechanics of the Mistborn adventure system. The details of what is in the character's inventory, and what assets they have at their disposal to negotiate with, can then become an independent exercise. I would recommend modeling that on your preferred system.
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« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2012, 07:30:51 AM »

Sirjerric its right on the spot. You need to keep the rules as simple as possible. you have gone from having a light approach with calculations not bigger than tens to have to make calculations based on 4 or 5 figures.

I think you could use resources to calculate the initial spending cash of the pcs (at character creation or at the start of each game, as you prefer).
make them keep track of how much money they have currently and whenever they make a resources roll, tell them how much they had to spend (whatever it was succesful or not... actually failures should be very expensive).
also, forget about props. They can have any basic equipment they want. Instead of props they get Prizes. very special objects that you establish are not something so usual and that gives somekind of advantage... a vial of an unknown metals should be a prize. A big scary koloss sword could be a prize... or not... as you decide. they are thinga that are not easy to get. Each character can have as many prizes as their Resources score. they can keep them for as long as they want... or can... if they lose them... its lost... but keep the number limit... If they ever get a resources advancement so does the limit of prizes go up.
maybe the initial spending cash roll can also give you the oportunnity to give prizes at character creation. for each nudge they get they can choos to increment their initial spending cash x2 or get a prize...
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Aminar
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« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2012, 08:57:35 AM »

See I tried to keep the system simple.  The calculations are purely tally based.  The only time you are working with big numbers is when you make a large score and frankly all that is is how many digits it is.  5 and 3 is 30000-39999 rounded down.  5 and 4 is 40000 and so on.  6 and 8 is 800000.  It keeps the math simple and allows for Mich greater buying power while keeping things to that simple roll.  A resources 2 character can still buy that Atium with a whole bunch of luck.  Same as before.  Its all about how much you have to pay.  Still seems to be that skill thing to me.

I think this needs a sell back feature as well.  Reduce the value of an item by 1(items with value 1 cannot be sold back.) and roll until you achieve the required value.  Add a tally per roll until you get the desired score.  So if a character at 5 and 3 tries to sell an Atium bead they could gain back 2 or 3 tallies if they're lucky.  A character with Resources 2 might go up to 3 and 4 before they manage to roll the pair of 4s needed.  Again the issues arise when you get towards the top where characters at resources 10 are selling value 2 objects for ten digit sums.  But they pay 10 digit sums for everything too so in the end it just means when superrich money flows freely.  On further though this needs to be reworked...  It allows the theft of 100 dueling canes to get you to resources 10.  Perhaps some kind of opposed roll against the sellers resources.  And then the tallies gained (when I figure that out) are based on their score so you have to sell to at least a resources peer to make money.  I like that.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 09:30:22 AM by Aminar » Logged
Maliloki
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« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2012, 10:28:53 AM »

I think my post go lost among the bigger ones.

I think an easy way for monies is to keep resources as they are and treat it as skilled investing of money and contacts and such. use either props or prizes as suggested above or your own inventory system as will work for you.

For extra cash and scores, rather than some tally mark and extra maths, describe the big treasure and give a number of points to be divided as the party chooses to be cash on hand as i heard when i listened to a podcast campaign of Burning Wheel.

Treat the cash on hand as bonus dice that can be used on any Resource roll whenever they choose, but any dice they use are lost after the roll, showing the easy come easy go nature of monies.

i.e. Kol needs a vial of atium, but only has a resources of 2. He could risk it and try, and he might get lucky, but his crew just had a big score and he has some extra cash to throw around so he throws in an additional 3 dice from his cash on hand, so his pool is temporarily boosted to a total of 5.

whether he succeeds or not, he still losses all 3 bonus dice from his extra cash. This would be in addition to the normal costs of making a resource roll.

seems to be pretty easy to implement and not to game breaking. ill probably use it if i can ever manage to get a Mistborn game running.
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Aminar
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« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2012, 10:44:33 AM »

There are a large number of reasons I dislike that system.  Its what the book reccomends but it doesn't make alot of sense to me.  What does that cash on hand represent?  Why does it go away if the roll fails?  By adding 3 dice I've made it 17 percent more likely Ill succeed but I still only have a 20 percent chance and if I use it its all gone?  That whole score for a roll Ill fail at?  No smart human being would make those odds.  Whereas if that 3 bonus dice offers aa fair shake.  The other problem is that my character with resources 5 gets the same bonus as the guy with resources 2?  But he gets more out of the use.  It just feels wrong. It may be simple but what I've made is far from rocket science.  Its as clean as a money system as I've seen.  It allows for a bonus when stealing while making richer characters go after bigger scores.  (A big one from how I see things.) 

If I liked the option in the book I'd have rolled with it but I don't like it.  It doesn't fee right and it breaks down on a logical level very quickly.  I'm still not fully happy with my system yet.  But I think I've figured that out too.
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valkynphyre
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« Reply #44 on: September 04, 2012, 11:13:23 AM »

I've got an idea that might work.  We stick with a starting resources score the same as normal.
Resources 2is 10 imperials.  From there every time a character obtains boxings they set their adjusted score.  So if a party scores 30000 a piece-a huge score...  Then the character sets his score to 5 and 3.  The 3 is a tally placed by the score.  Every time the character makes a rresources roll they drop a tally.  So my test roll was a character at 5 and 3 trying to hire a Kandra.  It took him 9 rolls.  3 at 5 and 6 at 4.  This put him at 4 and 3.  To get that Kandra he spent 27000 imperials.  
A characters resources replenish at a score of 1 tally every day so long as their current adjusted score is below their base score.  So our resources 2 hero only recovers 1 imperial a day while a character with resources 6 gets back 10000 a day as long as they haven't spent down past 5 and 1.  I think that while this incourages repeated rolling. it does allow for money to be spent effectively.  My only worry is that it makes getting what you want easy and expensive because it allows too many rolls in some ways.  Im not sure what to do with that...  At the same time an average resources of 3 makes it seem less broken. It just means the wealthy can get anything they need if they throw enough money at it...  Which can be troubling and kind of unbalanced.  But Hey.  Kelly circa book 1 has resources 6 and he could afford a Kandra  pretty easily...  Thoughts?

In a way it makes resources rolls more of a sure you can have that but how much will it cost kinda thing.  And it makes keeping Allomancers in Metals quite a bit easier as one of the things my party hated was running out of metals and then failing two rolls due to bad luck and being unable to purchase them.

It does discourage thieving past a certain point as well.  How often do you get a score that can raise somebodies income by over 100000 boxings.  You'll never steal up to rank 6.  You might get a loan up that high but past a certain point its all advancement and shoving money at a problem until you succeed.

Lastly I'm unsure how to work bribes and especially acquiring forces into this.  Bribes should be fine but it makes gaining soldiers a bit too easy.  Anybody with rank 7 will almost always have the Max number of soldiers at their back and can easily manage a huge chunk of bodyguards.... My test run had a resources 7 character spend justover 90 percent of his fortune to hire an army the size of Oshkosh WI.  64900 soldiers.  A part of me doesn't see that being All that outlandish.  But it sure as hell makes resources powerful.  I think first the spender must set a goal.  If they fail the goal they have to try again.  So if the guy went for regiments he'd have managed 6000 soldierswhile if he went for Army's he'd have hired 40000ish.  But he'd have failed more rolls...  

At resources 10 using the aim for a number method the character managed to get.215000 soldiers.  That number is huge but they spent 999,900,000 imperials to do it and it takes a minimum of 40 days to regain that wealth assuming breathers don't affect resources.

I think you may have something here. Sounds great.
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