Back to Crafty Games Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 25, 2014, 06:34:34 AM
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Welcome to the Crafty Games Forums!

Note to New Members: To combat spam, we have instituted new rules: you must post 5 replies to existing threads before you can create new threads.

+  Crafty Games Forum
|-+  Products
| |-+  Mistborn Adventure Game
| | |-+  The biggest problem I have with the system.
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 Go Down Print
Author Topic: The biggest problem I have with the system.  (Read 6571 times)
MistbornDave
Jr. Agent
**
Posts: 58



View Profile
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2012, 08:26:15 PM »

There's plenty of background information, its in the novels.
Logged

Check out my blog '7+ Ward Save'
http://7upwardsave.blogspot.com/

"I'm a thief, not a prophet. Sometimes, we just have to be what the job requires."
tecslicer
Jr. Agent
**
Posts: 62


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2012, 09:09:58 PM »

It would be nice if the wiki included all the little minutia that I keep finding as I re-reread the series (One of the months in the early summer is named Vineuarch(sp). There is a grain called Farrlet. Ourtoe is the historical center of the Venture house, and maybe the names of all the cities that have vaults in them (I keep forgetting the name of the last one.) Though as I read them the problem I have is that I keep getting too many ideas. Maybe we should start a thread for people to post their story ideas. Sort of a brainstorming kind of thing.

Just imagine it: A hidden society of keepers that pass along their feruchemy by using hemalurgy. Spikes get passed down as the bearers die, so that almost every member of the clan is at least a ferring. There are even elders with copper minds that pass down with their spikes...
Logged
valkynphyre
Specialist
*
Posts: 9


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2012, 01:43:22 AM »

sounds like a great idea for a different forum topic, but not his one.
Logged
Aminar
Agent
***
Posts: 153



View Profile
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2012, 09:45:16 AM »

There's plenty of background information, its in the novels.

While true very little of that background is described in much detail and most of it relates directly to the story of the novels, if you want to step at all away from the social problems set by the novels-which are quite mature and beyond the scope of most Role Playing Games- there isn't much to work with.  I don't want to solve the final empire-That's been done in the books better than I can possibly manage.  I want other problems and there aren't any that don't stem straight from the final empire because all there is is the bloody final empire.  Hence my complaint that the system doesn't adapt well to other story structures. 
Logged
Aldus Vertten
Handler
*****
Posts: 692


Los Otros Planes


View Profile WWW
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2012, 12:44:43 PM »

There's plenty of background information, its in the novels.

Yeah, but it's note practical to have to read the novels all over again to get that information. As I said, i can find that information online... I just wish the book had more of that information properly formatted, and expanded, in order to play. It's not so much to ask for, and plenty of the games that adapt licensed settings do that exactly. SGRPG has 100+ pages of Setting info before it gets to the mechanics. Babylon 5 has around 80+ pages about the galaxy and the stories that happened in the episodes... the old Game of thrones d20 rpg had a quite complete chapter about the world of westeros... And that's just from the ones i have near me now...
Yeah, that usually makes for massive books, so a Sourcebook with more detail about the setting could be a nice thing... still, it's a pity it's not there in the core book.


While true very little of that background is described in much detail and most of it relates directly to the story of the novels, if you want to step at all away from the social problems set by the novels-which are quite mature and beyond the scope of most Role Playing Games- there isn't much to work with.  I don't want to solve the final empire-That's been done in the books better than I can possibly manage.  I want other problems and there aren't any that don't stem straight from the final empire because all there is is the bloody final empire.  Hence my complaint that the system doesn't adapt well to other story structures. 

To be fair, the setting it's what it is. If you dont like the Final Empire, play in the New world after end of the trilogy and you will have no limits on what to do with the elements you already got...
You're playing the game because supossedly you liked the books, and the games gives you the chance to play in that setting.
If you just liked the magic system, or the system in general, you can take what you like and make your own.
In that respect the book gives you plenty of advice on how to adapt the story to your own tastes, and the What if section is very good in doing that.

Maybe you need to think what made you try to play the game in the first place... and follow from there...




Logged

"No queda sino batirnos"
-------------
-El Capitan Alatriste
Aminar
Agent
***
Posts: 153



View Profile
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2012, 06:30:21 PM »

There's plenty of background information, its in the novels.

Yeah, but it's note practical to have to read the novels all over again to get that information. As I said, i can find that information online... I just wish the book had more of that information properly formatted, and expanded, in order to play. It's not so much to ask for, and plenty of the games that adapt licensed settings do that exactly. SGRPG has 100+ pages of Setting info before it gets to the mechanics. Babylon 5 has around 80+ pages about the galaxy and the stories that happened in the episodes... the old Game of thrones d20 rpg had a quite complete chapter about the world of westeros... And that's just from the ones i have near me now...
Yeah, that usually makes for massive books, so a Sourcebook with more detail about the setting could be a nice thing... still, it's a pity it's not there in the core book.


While true very little of that background is described in much detail and most of it relates directly to the story of the novels, if you want to step at all away from the social problems set by the novels-which are quite mature and beyond the scope of most Role Playing Games- there isn't much to work with.  I don't want to solve the final empire-That's been done in the books better than I can possibly manage.  I want other problems and there aren't any that don't stem straight from the final empire because all there is is the bloody final empire.  Hence my complaint that the system doesn't adapt well to other story structures. 

To be fair, the setting it's what it is. If you dont like the Final Empire, play in the New world after end of the trilogy and you will have no limits on what to do with the elements you already got...
You're playing the game because supossedly you liked the books, and the games gives you the chance to play in that setting.
If you just liked the magic system, or the system in general, you can take what you like and make your own.
In that respect the book gives you plenty of advice on how to adapt the story to your own tastes, and the What if section is very good in doing that.

Maybe you need to think what made you try to play the game in the first place... and follow from there...






I know why I want to play the game.  I ADORE Mistborn.  The issue is that the system isn't built for how I write RPG stories.  And I debated "The New Wold" post series.  But in that new world there aren't Feruchemists or Mistborn and there are Ferrings and Twinborn-Neither of which has a functional rule set yet.  It's purely an issue of the system constraining itself unnecessarily and for my style, very very uncomfortable.  I don't like The Final Empire as a story concept.  I never even really liked the story of Mistborn.  I like the characters and the magic system.  The RPG system is designed for the story and completely ignores the motivations of a good half of what would be the PC party by taking out money and the ability to stockpile things.  What kind of game calls the party a Thieving Crew and then makes stealing things almost completely pointless?  In this case one with a fantastic combat system in a world that prohibits combat.

Writing Excuses(Brandon's Podcast) just did an episode with Monty Cook where he explains the Keys to worldbuilding for an RPG.  The keys are have the world chockfull of problems ranging from little to big all with different causes and reasons.  A plethora of antagonists.  Tons of details about the world as a whole.  Unfortunatley Mistborn lacks this.  It is an amazing vessel for acting out the books.  It is not a good vessel for writing different styles of story in.  As I have said, I've built around that for now.  I still think the problems should be addressed.  And an explanaion of why everything disappears during a long breather would be nice.  Because frankly I just find the design of it to be bizarre.  Every gamer I have ever known will pick up Bizarre stuff and make obtaining a fancy new item a huge goal.  Why take that away?  I know the story characters don't worry about it and maybe you don't like counting coppers, but there are lots of players that do.  They mentioned in the book they knew it was odd.  Why not give some idea of what levels of wealth a given rating implies.  At least that way I can give my players bonus resources for how much they steal. 

Is it so hard to say
Resources 2-Occasionally might have a whole boxing.
Resources 3-Frequently has as much as 10 boxings.
Resources 4-Has a life savings of 100 boxings.
Resources 5-Net worth of 1000 boxings.
Resources 6-  Often has as much as 10000 boxings and so on up the scale(I'm just multiplying by 10 every time).  That way if I have them steal 30000 boxings I know to boost their resources to 6 until they spend back down to their base income stat or if tehy are at 6 that they get a free roll at resources 6 before it drops down again.  I know I could homebrew this, but while I love coming up with Homebrew designs I never feel comfortable with them because they take time to playtest and work out.
Logged
Aldus Vertten
Handler
*****
Posts: 692


Los Otros Planes


View Profile WWW
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2012, 08:03:20 PM »

I think the kind of game Mistorn tries to be is not the kind of game you are used to, or like. So either you try to get used to it, or take what you like and discard the rest. This game has nothing to do with D20, with long list of equipment, with how much is this worth or how much is the encumbrance of the character... The stealing, the equipment, the money... it's just flavour. The really interesting thing are the Destinies and tragedies of your pcs, the Secrets they uncover...
This game is much more in the line of games like Fiasco and Octane that spycraft, fantasy craft or D&D... The reason things dissapear after a long breather is because they were not important. If they were, then it's time to use an advancement. If the scheme worked out ant the thieving crew got a big score, just give them advancements that they must spend in resources. Maybe let them use a small amount of advancement to get other things too..


And just to be clear, when i was speaking about the new world, I was speaking about how Scadrial is at the end of The Hero of Ages. They've to start from zero, but hey still have mistborn, and mistings and feruchemist. Koloss and Kandra are no longer hemalurgic creations, but true races (that would need a little of adapting, sure) and hemalurgy is gone for good. It's not until much much later that the twinborn/ferrings appear... In that moment you have a clean slate to do whatever you want.

Again, just keep the magic system and develop something else. Forget about Lord Ruler, and about the Final Empire, if you dont like it. Take a more traditional approach to the history, and make something with which you're comfortable.









Logged

"No queda sino batirnos"
-------------
-El Capitan Alatriste
Aminar
Agent
***
Posts: 153



View Profile
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2012, 08:43:43 PM »

I think the kind of game Mistorn tries to be is not the kind of game you are used to, or like. So either you try to get used to it, or take what you like and discard the rest. This game has nothing to do with D20, with long list of equipment, with how much is this worth or how much is the encumbrance of the character... The stealing, the equipment, the money... it's just flavour. The really interesting thing are the Destinies and tragedies of your pcs, the Secrets they uncover...
This game is much more in the line of games like Fiasco and Octane that spycraft, fantasy craft or D&D... The reason things dissapear after a long breather is because they were not important. If they were, then it's time to use an advancement. If the scheme worked out ant the thieving crew got a big score, just give them advancements that they must spend in resources. Maybe let them use a small amount of advancement to get other things too..


And just to be clear, when i was speaking about the new world, I was speaking about how Scadrial is at the end of The Hero of Ages. They've to start from zero, but hey still have mistborn, and mistings and feruchemist. Koloss and Kandra are no longer hemalurgic creations, but true races (that would need a little of adapting, sure) and hemalurgy is gone for good. It's not until much much later that the twinborn/ferrings appear... In that moment you have a clean slate to do whatever you want.

Again, just keep the magic system and develop something else. Forget about Lord Ruler, and about the Final Empire, if you dont like it. Take a more traditional approach to the history, and make something with which you're comfortable.



I DM games from books I've read(IE Dresden as has been mentioned, and Mistborn is the only other worthwhile option.)  so that I don't have to make huge worlds.  I do enough of that for my own writing, something I don't feel capable of DMing in yet.  I don't have time for hours of prep per session.  I want to be able to pick up and play in a world with maybe half an hours prep(which typically allows me 7-8 hour Dresden sessions that I've never heard complaints about)  A big part of that is that Dresden is based around the idea of being the supernatural protectors of an area.  Thus making a goal is very easy.  
Mistborn is about being a thieving crew, running HEISTS.  I can't run a Heist if there is no reward.  And you can't spend advancement to gain an object as a prop that isn't on the prop list.  There is no cost given and I again don't like homebrewing costs for things without basis(maybe create the object as a trait, but that doesn't seem like an accurate translation).  How much do I charge for a Koloss Sword?  Should it really be worth any when they picked it up as a trophy after a battle?  Not really no?  But it can be damned important to a character.  Who are the game designers to say they don't matter?  At least offer up something as an option.  Throw little bits of, we know we're trying something different, if it doesn't work for your group try this instead.

Scadriel right after the last book has One Mistborn from what I can tell.  Feruchemists are extinct or almost so as well and Sazed fixes this by making Ferrings.  At least that's how I've always interpreted things.  The Kandra are some kind of secret Spy Group beholden to Sazed, taking them away as a character option.  The Twinborn may not have come about yet, but even so It's still just not a comfortable place to run a game.  there isn't enough info given about the time period.

I'm just frustrated because I know what my friends like, and I know what I like to write for them, and I can't do that in Mistborn without huge modifications and homebrew, something I just don't feel comfortable balancing because I've seen way too many DM's fail at it utterly.

There are some big flaws to the system.  Shouldn't they be pointed out?  

I guess I'm looking for more creative solutions than you're offering.  I've thought through all of the obvious ones and can't find any of them that are comfortable.  But a game in which I could run things like Kel did pre-pits.  That would be so so so much fun. And I can't because the system built for the world doesn't let me despite it being the primary concept behind party creation.

The last real problem I have is breathers as a concept...  But that comes from the story structure I use.  I never end a session until the story is told If I can help it.  Most of my Dresden Sessions had in Game months or years between them, giving every session I nice episodic feel and the characters real lives beyond adventuring.  The characters grew and developed beautifully this way.  I can't do that with Mistborn without having Long Breathers between every session, something the system isn't designed for.  It's just so frustrating to love a system and a world so much but be unable to effectively write for it because the style of story isn't something you're comfortable writing.  I love Mistborn for it's easy character creation, elegant combat, beautiful social combat system, fun and diverse character options, dedication to story over everything, and a host of other things.  But While all of that is wonderful the system is crippled by some huge flaws in motivating characters and diversity.  

This is a link displaying the events of my Dresden Campaign.  the last session never got entered because the session was rather religously controversial(the characters facilitated the crucifixion and I'm a prominent staff member for the con who's forums the topic is in.)
http://forums.daishocon.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3803

This should give you a better idea of how I run things and why Mistborn just fails at the style...

As to Destinies and tragedies, i find that many players write themselves into a character, deciding on their Destinies and Tragedies as they get involved in the larger story told by the DM.  When I ask players what is your destiny they look at me blankley and then eventually say, i want to get rich.  Or I want to kill this guy.  Starting players lack vision.  They want a character that does cool things and they build a character as they play.  This is true especially because few of them know the world and less know the city during the first session.  They need context.  To create that context I have to motivate them to start exploring and that requires me as a DM to provide something for them to do.  That something has to be interesting, challenging, low level, and something a thieving crew would do.(steal things?)  Wait nope.  System doesn't work for it.  I'm just saying the system has some flaws.  Large ones.  Ones that inhibit what can be done with something that is supposed to be an open book where anything can be done.  yes, tragedies and destinies are great storytelling things, but they come later after the players understand more of what they are doing, where they are, etc.
Please don't tell me-The system isn't for you, go play D&D.  That's not what I or anybody else here is looking for.  The other person that agrees with me is looking for a way to get a campaign started.  So am I.  But I'm also saying that parts of the system could use some re-evaulation to allow for stories that aren't-the end of the final empire.  I can't wait for the planned game-supplements because they should solve quite a few of my problems by explaining other sections of the world where the final empire has less sway.  And showing more things to fight.  And doing so without breaching continuity.  Now to make up some Hemalurgic creations to throw at people.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 09:58:45 PM by Aminar » Logged
Dreamstreamer
Agent
***
Posts: 198



View Profile
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2012, 09:14:07 AM »

I'm a bit dense at times. Could you provide a bulleted list of what you see as big flaws in the system? As important as the what, the why behind the what would be useful to see as well.

For example, something like:

  • Acquiring stuff - I think the method they use for acquiring stuff in the game isn't supported by the source material because X, Y, and Z.
  • Encounter variety - I don't think there is enough encounter variety because X, Y, and Z. What I really need for my game to work is A, B, and C.

Maybe the community can help resolve these big flaws with you if they better understand your expectations, no?
Logged
Aldus Vertten
Handler
*****
Posts: 692


Los Otros Planes


View Profile WWW
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2012, 10:24:01 AM »

Scadriel right after the last book has One Mistborn from what I can tell.  Feruchemists are extinct or almost so as well and Sazed fixes this by making Ferrings.  At least that's how I've always interpreted things.  The Kandra are some kind of secret Spy Group beholden to Sazed, taking them away as a character option.  The Twinborn may not have come about yet, but even so It's still just not a comfortable place to run a game.  there isn't enough info given about the time period.

It's been a while since i read the books, but I dont remember that there's only a mistborn left. Spook is the only mistborn of the characters we knew, but not the only mistborn in the whole world. Feruchemist are the same. Lots of people got to the tunnels and were saved. From what Sanderson has stated in some Q&A that you can find around, allomancy/feruchemy gets diluted and eventualluy mistborn/full feruchemist become something of legend. Eventually. Ferrings appear because of that, and mistings are now far more common, and the interbreeding of terrismen with the skaa eventually also provokes the appearance of twinborn. but i agree with you, there's not information enough to play that era without plenty of work on the part of the gm...

I'm just frustrated because I know what my friends like, and I know what I like to write for them, and I can't do that in Mistborn without huge modifications and homebrew, something I just don't feel comfortable balancing because I've seen way too many DM's fail at it utterly.

There are some big flaws to the system.  Shouldn't they be pointed out?  
What you see as flaws in the system, I see as conscious choices. The style of the game is different than the usual. But that's my opinion, of course, and there's not problem in disagreeing.


The last real problem I have is breathers as a concept...  But that comes from the story structure I use.  I never end a session until the story is told If I can help it.  Most of my Dresden Sessions had in Game months or years between them, giving every session I nice episodic feel and the characters real lives beyond adventuring.  The characters grew and developed beautifully this way.  I can't do that with Mistborn without having Long Breathers between every session, something the system isn't designed for.  
Breathers are just a way of pacing the story and controling the spending and recovery of the characters. You decide when to use them. You can play 4 sessions without a long breather, no problem. You can use long beats to develop the lifes of the characters across a longer span of time... You can play a little bit with the duration of beats, and with the duration of short and long breaths.  I just think that is a clever way to manage the usual mess of establishing when your character recovers from his injuries, or the resources he has spent.
Take the first book. There's a moment when the narrative makes a jump of several months in the timeline, skipping all the tedious work related to getting the plan ready and the army started... And its not a different story, its the same. And in game terms... you could have that long breather in the middle of the session, and keep playing after that for as long as you want... and for as many sessions as you want... without another long breather, if you think is the proper way to go.




It's just so frustrating to love a system and a world so much but be unable to effectively write for it because the style of story isn't something you're comfortable writing.  I love Mistborn for it's easy character creation, elegant combat, beautiful social combat system, fun and diverse character options, dedication to story over everything, and a host of other things.  But While all of that is wonderful the system is crippled by some huge flaws in motivating characters and diversity.  

As to Destinies and tragedies, i find that many players write themselves into a character, deciding on their Destinies and Tragedies as they get involved in the larger story told by the DM.  When I ask players what is your destiny they look at me blankley and then eventually say, i want to get rich.  Or I want to kill this guy.  Starting players lack vision.  They want a character that does cool things and they build a character as they play.  This is true especially because few of them know the world and less know the city during the first session.  They need context.  To create that context I have to motivate them to start exploring and that requires me as a DM to provide something for them to do.  That something has to be interesting, challenging, low level, and something a thieving crew would do.(steal things?)  Wait nope.  System doesn't work for it.  I'm just saying the system has some flaws.  Large ones.  Ones that inhibit what can be done with something that is supposed to be an open book where anything can be done.  yes, tragedies and destinies are great storytelling things, but they come later after the players understand more of what they are doing, where they are, etc.

I think Destinies and tragedies are a a really good tool to motivate characters. Yes, maybe the player doesnt know much about the world, but you do. And you can take that "i want to kill that guy" and use that as a basis for a story which eventually will get the player invested in the world. the player dont need to develop them too much, they're hooks for you to use as bait.

I dont see Mistborn as a game about heist. Yes, it uses the structure of that kind of stories, but the goal of the game is not to just that.  The first mistborn book starts as a heist story, but soon leaves that style behind.

I've been watching lately a lot of heist movies, and a looot of episodes of Leverage. And something you get after a while is that the story is more about the scheme, about the complications, about the real reason for the heist, that about the supposed prize.




Please don't tell me-The system isn't for you, go play D&D.  That's not what I or anybody else here is looking for.  

Really sorry if that's the impression i gave to you. Not my point really.

I rather you go and play some Fiasco Cheesy

I can't wait for the planned game-supplements because they should solve quite a few of my problems by explaining other sections of the world where the final empire has less sway.  And showing more things to fight.  And doing so without breaching continuity.  Now to make up some Hemalurgic creations to throw at people.

I'm hoping to see more sourcebooks as well, and it would be nice to have more background to play with, but from my experience with Crafty Games, it may take a while. They make really good games, but they also want to have the best book possible out there, and that takes time.






Logged

"No queda sino batirnos"
-------------
-El Capitan Alatriste
Aminar
Agent
***
Posts: 153



View Profile
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2012, 10:52:37 AM »

A:  There are next to no antagonists.  Everything stems back to The Final Empire, Noble houses, Skaa gangs, and Hemalurgic baddies.  This makes creating diverse, non-repetitive sessions difficult and cumbersome.  Sure there are a million and a half kinds of mistings, but only a few combat viable ones and you need lots of them to make a challenge for the party making diverse encounters difficult.  This is why as a DM I have always relegated social conflicts to non-finale level things.  I want every session to feel unique and Scadriel isn't big enough or diverse enough for that.
-To step away from the problem of the Final Empire and create other problems deserving of the parties attention breaking continuity is almost required.

B:  There is no way within the rules to accrue wealth or cool stuff.  
-This makes a few key character archetypes worthless or hard to motivate.  Specifically thieves and mercenaries.  If they can't get paid for their actions why should they do anything.  This is in line with the stories within Mistborn, but from both a narrator and player perspective, very limiting.  Counting Coppers can be as fun and rewarding a style of play as anything else and can motivate some real bastards to do good.  But not in Mistborn.

C:  I call a party a thieving crew.  The party sets up a heist, a great way to get the party together, start a campaign, and set up for bigger problems.
-The party gets pissed when they find out the reward for all their clever planning isn't that they get some stuff along with the session like a thieving crew would, it's the same advancement they'd get for bullrushing in and killing everything.  This builds a sense of pointlessness to anything involving a thieving crew stealing anything.  That's out of line with novels.  

D:  Breathers.  These are the most restrictive and annoying things ever.  Short Breathers mid-session are great.  Long Breathers anytime the party sits still for over a day, cutting away all of their acquisitions and things.  It's obnoxious if you want to do self contained story sessions.  It gives EVERYTHING a feeling of impermanence that is truly annoying.  
-If the party wants to lay low for a few days after a major heist to avoid drawing suspicion that Atium stash they stole goes away by RAW.  I know as a narrator I can circumvent this, but this is about flaws in the system that DM"s have to pick up after.

E:  The system is designed to tell stories of a very specific type.  Stories about people going out and making sweeping social changes, fighting giant wars, and making big splashes.  That story style is why they have items disappearing at long breathers, why the have money be a minor thing characters spend on occasion, and why it takes place on Scadriel where there is one giant bad guy sitting in a giant fortress waiting to be taken down.  That is the story of the novels.  Brandon told it amazingly.  I don't deal in what if this thing in the books went wrong stories.  I don't deal in world shattering stories because the aftermath of that one big splash is boring as all hell.  What i deal in is stories of individual conflicts spanning years that reveal something massive hiding behind the scenes.  I deal in mysteries and strange occurences that the party notices and tries to solve.  I deal in heists and murders that need to be hidden from the authorities and back alley brawls beneath the notice of the government.  NONE of those things work in Mistborn.  That is bad game design.  
It is literally as if every writing trick I've found to make my games better than every other DM I've dealt with is gone.  I can't use any of them in this setting.  I don't write big epic stories like Sanderson because I don't feel they work in campaigns.  They take too long and never get finished.  Or they solve everything and leave the players saying-i wish I had more time with this character.

Mistborn as a story starts huge-Take out the godking head honcho and moves up from there to Take out the gods.  I can't write a campaign like that.  I wrote a book that starts a process involving similar principles.  It took me nearly a year.  If I try to run a campaign that does all that it will take 2-3 years if I meet every week, somethign I don't have the scheduling to do.  When was the last time you were in a campaign that lasted 2-3 years?  Not often.

My complaints aren't that the system doesn't fit the world(inability to be a thieving crew aside).  It's that telling other story types isn't supported.  And most of the problem lies in Scadriel and its lack of problems.  I'll run through some plot paths I've thought of.

Party starts to take out particularly abusive Noble Plantation owners.
Some Nobles start being nicer, others call for help.
Inquisitors and Obligators everywhere.
Party deals with those.
Koloss whordes.
Players deal with those-Time to nail TLR while his armies are weakened.-Hey look I broke continuity and ended the campaign.

Party is a group of Nobles hunting Skaa gangs.
Party ends up realizing how terrible the Skaa have it or they act like Nobles and plunder and rape Skaa for fun-the campaign sucks.
Party starts hitting Nobles.
House War ensues.
Party wins House war.
Party decides the big problem is TLR-Look where we went again.

No matter where you start you get two options-indiscriminate slaughter of Skaa or lets fight TLR.  I've already said where the problem with that is.  That story has been done better than I can ever do.


Is that more concise?  Probably not?
Logged
Aminar
Agent
***
Posts: 153



View Profile
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2012, 10:59:09 AM »


Quote
What you see as flaws in the system, I see as conscious choices. The style of the game is different than the usual. But that's my opinion, of course, and there's not problem in disagreeing.

I know they are.  I think they are bad choices because they inhibit writing.  When I buy an RPG it's so I can tell other stories in the world and the system isn't designed for that.  It's irritating and unnecessary.

Quote
I think Destinies and tragedies are a a really good tool to motivate characters. Yes, maybe the player doesnt know much about the world, but you do. And you can take that "i want to kill that guy" and use that as a basis for a story which eventually will get the player invested in the world. the player dont need to develop them too much, they're hooks for you to use as bait.


Yes.  They are.  But the number of times I've seen games where characters effectively used motivations...  I can think of 2.  One was me.  I had a thief ion a serenity campaign named Jarvis who's goal in life was to get rich.  By the end of the campaign he'd built a company and was singlehandedly funding everything the party did because he worked toward that goal.  But that arc took 3/4ths of a 3 year campaign to achieve.  And that's how a good destiny works.  it's a side story, one that keeps coming up.  The other was a Dresden Character trying to find out who his Mom was.



Quote
I dont see Mistborn as a game about heist. Yes, it uses the structure of that kind of stories, but the goal of the game is not to just that.  The first mistborn book starts as a heist story, but soon leaves that style behind.

I know.  But why isn't it an OPTION?  Why must the system be designed to inhibit the style of play that started the story and the party terminology is based around?

Quote
I've been watching lately a lot of heist movies, and a looot of episodes of Leverage. And something you get after a while is that the story is more about the scheme, about the complications, about the real reason for the heist, that about the supposed prize.
You can't make the characters do the heist if the initial motivations are baseless.

Logged
Aldus Vertten
Handler
*****
Posts: 692


Los Otros Planes


View Profile WWW
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2012, 11:40:03 AM »

A. This problem has to do with the setting, not the system. Scadrial is like that, and if the game didnt reflect that it would have been a very poor adaptation of the setting.  An adaptation has to get you the tools to play with what's in the sandbox already.

B. There's a sidenote about money, and how you, as a Gm, can give extra circumstance dice to the players to resources test while you think is appropiate, and take them away progressively when they spend it.

C. Personally, i would never give advancements to a crew whose method is killing everything in their path. Its not the spirit of the game, nor the setting, and therefore not a reason to get advancements.

Crews are not "thieving crews" per se. " This is a band of two or more Heroes, united by a common cause", according to the game terms chapter. Not the capital letter in Heroes.

As a Gm, in character creatiion, if my players tell me that the common cause for their crew is Getting Rich, I make sure that they develop on that.


D- You, as a GM, decide when to introduce a long breathers, not the players. They can ask for it, suggest it, but its you who decides. If they want to stay low for a little while, thats a long Beat, maybe days or weeks long, rolling to make sure they hide properly and don get caught.

E. Again, different opinions. To my is being faithful to the series, to the setting and the spirit of the stories in it.


What I dont understand is that you complain that the game doesnt give you more options beyond the ones in the original books, and at the same time dont want to do stories that contradict the continuity. If the designers had created new enemies, different empires, or given more diversity to the world, they would have broken apart from the continuity... something you yourself dont want to do...

I keep thinking that everything resumes in a problem of style, of the kind of game is Mistborn. If they had made a Fantasycraft version of the setting, it would have been different, and more akin to what you are looking for, I think. More options easily portable, and a more traditional story structure, maybe.
Logged

"No queda sino batirnos"
-------------
-El Capitan Alatriste
Maliloki
Recruit
*
Posts: 15




View Profile
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2012, 01:01:45 PM »

Just want to say I too have some issues with setting and dealing with canon, but I'm trying to work around that cause, for me at least, its just a mental block I've got to get over.

One thing you could do as far as accumulating wealth is to give a "cash on hand" pool of dice that is separate from resources. Treat resources as normal income/sources and such. Use the cash on hand as bonus dice they can choose to use a divide how they want, but when they use the dice they dissapear. If they choose to use 3 bonus dice on a bribe, all three go away once the roll is resolved.

As far as getting cool equipment, just let the players keep it if it makes sense that they could, a person running around the middle of a city with a Koloss blade would draw a lot of unwanted attention. This also means that all advancements would be just for improving the characters, not giving them stuff.

For adventures, your post about the style of games you'd like to run gave me a few ideas. Bring in a new player that's operating behind the scenes that is trying something new. Stealing people to experiment with new metals, or spikes, or doing anything and slowly reveal who's behind it. The party may even have to work with the obligators.

Just my 2˘
Logged
Dreamstreamer
Agent
***
Posts: 198



View Profile
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2012, 01:29:00 PM »

In response to A:
Next to no antagonists? I know I tried to address this concern before, but I'll give it another shot. Just as stories set in the Star Wars universe are not limited to killing Imperial Stormtroopers and commanding officers and taking down the Emperor and Vader (as much fun as that is), Mistborn stories are not limited to killing Steel Ministry Obligators and House nobles and taking down the Lord Ruler. I think most settings can be reduced down to a handful of types of antagonists, they are just given differing personalities and abilities to make them seem unique. For example, while D&D as a setting has a plethora (I love ĄThree Amigos!) of monsters to choose from, many are just variations on the monsters that the heroes have already overcome. A lot of it can come down to description.

Additionally, there are lots of different types of conflicts and not all of them are physical. Gambling, racing, smuggling, long cons, smear campaigns, etc. They don't provide a "villain-of-the-week" in the book, but give you the tools to create your own. One Obligator might have a penchant for a game of shelldry; another might look out for orphan skaa children, but relentlessly persecute his skaa servants. How about a Steel Inquisitor that never runs anywhere. Instead, his heavy walk telegraphs his coming. He knows you can (and will) run away, but likes serving as a reminder that you will never truly escape. He believes your death is inevitable.

In response to B:
If you want to permanently acquire wealth and cool stuff, you buy it with advancements. The rules are there. Now, if you want to be able to keep every last thing you pick up (regardless of relevance to the story at hand), you're right, the rules don't support it. And neither does the story the rules are based off of. Do any of the heroes count coins? They want more wealth, but aren't scrimping and saving every last boxing and clip to do so.

Part of the disconnect for me comes from past experiences with RPGs, where I amassed money (whether gold or credits or some other form of currency). Of course, with that mindset I also had to account for money spent on food, lodging, and all of my gear (including repairs!), which I happily don't have to deal with in this game. I can understand the appeal it might have for some people, so it certainly isn't badwrongfun to do so, but I also don't miss the extra bookkeeping. Remember, this is supposed to be a narrative and rather rules-light game. I think that the rules support that playstyle better by cutting back on counting coin or keeping track of everything your character has ever picked up.

In response to C:
What did Kelsier's thieving crew steal in the novels? I don't remember thieving to be anything more than the method they used to further their goals, and not that the crew amassed fortunes or a whole lot of stuff that they used from then on. Again, this feels more like expectations set based on other RPGs where such actions are encouraged, if not necessary for PC survival.

In response to D:
I think this ties in with the desire to count coin (See response to B). Long breathers make it so that you don't have to track every last coin and piece of inventory every player has accrued in the game. I find it similar to the Panache and Prudence aspects of Lifestyle in Fantasy Craft. It is expected that your character spends some money during downtime. In the case of Mistings and Mistborn, it means that they also replenish their vials. So it is not just about losing what they've acquired, it is about returning to the state of having what they expect to need or at least what they typically have on their person.

In response to E:
I fail to see how other stories can't be told. I brought up Star Wars before. Just because the main story the game is based on follows a particular pattern doesn't mean that all stories told in the setting must follow that same pattern (though Joseph Campbell might disagree with me on that one... Wink). I guess I just see a setting oozing with potential for all kinds of stories. I'll try to provide some examples after lunch.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!