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ludomastro
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« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2012, 06:31:18 PM »

Some quick feedback on the races (which look very good to me, having not looked at the rulebook in a while):

<1>- I'd be a bit more generous with those attribute bonuses. I have admittedly never tried to create a race with the FC guidelines, but I think a conversion should at least try to hit all of the bonuses. The stat differences in SR are large (I mean, come on, a Troll gets a CON bonus that's almost as large as the regular human maximum; that'd be +15 in FC). They don't have to be as large, since the game balances differently, but if you keep the straightup numbers from SR3 I think you have a good starting point.

<2>- The races in SR are not balanced per their overall bonuses. Balancing happens through the point cost/priority cost. I think it would be perfectly fine to either create base races that achieve SR heights only by adding a feat (eg, base troll is +3 CON, +2 STR, and with feat becomes +5 CON, +4 STR), or by losing an action dice (the latter route balanced races in the somewhat related Earthdawn)

<3>- I don't think the dwarves' wounds should be adjusted for height. Dwarves are among the tougher things in Shadowrun, and reducing their wounds to 2/3 CON makes them squishier than humans.

1 - While I understand what you are saying, you would loose the ability to give them anything BUT stat bonuses if we try for the heights presented in the source material.  While we are approaching it from different directions Mr. A and I agree that getting the feel of the race is more important than a literal conversion.

2 - Very true, and I wondered about that for a while.  However, I decided that if FC can handle (mini) dragons and giants at first level, then denying people the ability to play a "real" troll at first level wasn't what I wanted.

3 - Yeah, the dwarves are bothering me.  Isn't there something that bumps wounds up to the next size category.  That might go a long way to solving my concerns with dwarves.

I appreciate the input and will ponder the split race thought process.
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MikeS
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« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2012, 08:35:07 PM »


1 - While I understand what you are saying, you would loose the ability to give them anything BUT stat bonuses if we try for the heights presented in the source material.  While we are approaching it from different directions Mr. A and I agree that getting the feel of the race is more important than a literal conversion.

I think you misunderstand. I wasn't proposing to give trolls an SR-equivalent bonus (which would be +15 on CON), but instead use the straight numbers, ie do pretty much what you are doing with the dwarf as opposed to what Mr. A is suggesting.

As in: I like +1 ST, +1 CON, +1 Wis much better than +2 Con, -2 Dex. Even +2 Con is not as good as the full split.

I'd do the Elf +1 Dex, +1 Cha.

Orc is good as is, or split the negative modifiers to -1/-1 each Cha and Int.

And I would add +4 Str to the troll, otherwise he is only as strong as the orc, which can be balanced with a -2 to Dex. I would reduce to speed 40 ft again as well. Why should he be able to move faster than a human when he is already lumbering?
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Big_Jim
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« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2012, 09:52:23 PM »

Give dwarfs Rock Solid. then their wounds level up with them.
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MilitiaJim
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« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2012, 10:48:21 PM »

Give dwarfs Rock Solid. then their wounds level up with them.
Is there a points benefit to being size small?  Why not just make the Dwarves medium folk?  They aren't tall, but they do mass like humans well over a foot taller than they are.

Medium folk with a speed of 20' and a reach of one.

I may be thinking D&D, but is there a way to ignore the first 5' of movement penalty from armor?  (Awesome fluff or no, the speed penalty is why I very seldom roll a dwarf.)
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MikeS
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« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2012, 10:52:19 PM »

Quote

Another thought for you, this time on a new Wealth stat:

Chrome

Your Chrome score summarizes your transition away from the flesh to the technological. As your Chrome increases, so does the amount and complexity of your cybernetics, as well as your distance from the unaugmented. Your Chrome score may ordinarily never be higher than your Prudence+1, and you may only purchase Chrome if you have the cybernetics interest.

Additional Prizes: This is the number of additional prizes you may hold, provided they are in the form of a cybernetic upgrade.

Error Range: While the use of cybernetics is increasing, it is a sad fact that some people respond poorly to visible prosthetics. Each time you make a Charisma-based skill check targeting another character, your error range increases by this amount when your Chrome score exceeds the target's Wisdom modifier or they do not share your cybernetics interest.


Mr. A hits on a really important subject here: resources.

SR3 has two issues (or features, depending on how you look at it):
1) The character creation system does not necessarily make characters of equal power level. A maxed out Mage or Million-dollar samurai are a lot more capable than, say, the investigator or the ganger.
2) It is absolutely possible for characters to start out with more nuyen worth of cyberware in their body than they will ever make again. Standard Shadowrun adventures often list contract ranges in the 10,000-20,000 nuyen range, sometimes up to 50k. Depending on how many of the special rules you use, this kind of cash is barely enough to maintain and repair cyberware and lifestyle, nevermind upgrade (especially if you add the implant costs).

One of the strengths of FC is that you can handle all this with levels and level (no pun intended) the playing field. But that means that resources that usually cost cash have to be coupled to level somehow.

I think the basic reputation and prize system works for "incidental" cyberware (like eyes and other cheap stuff). I think that there should be some option (maybe a specialty?) that allows you to boost up your resources for buying 'wares, eg:

Specialty: Street Samurai
You are the chromed up predator of the Sprawl.
Bonus Feat: Chromed
Some stuff:...
Heavily cybered: any time you receive a bonus feat, you may take Chromed instead.

Feat: Chromed
This feat may be purchased multiple times. When you purchase this feat you gain 30 renown points that you may spend on cyberware prizes. The limit of prizes you may hold increases by 1.

A comparable specialty could be made for deckers and riggers, only in their case, they get to spend the rep on decks/software or vehicles/drones.

The Essence attribute should be integrated then as well. Essence could be stacked up straight from the source numbers, or it can be calculated from the renown points for balance. The resulting number should be added as a penalty to all Medicine checks targeting the character, as well as spells. I'd have to dig deeper into the source material again to see if resistance to diseases and the like are also affected.
I wouldn't have Essence affect social reaction to the character, since you can fully chrome up and still look very human if you put down enough nuyen.

Has anybody tried to calculate the costs for some standard items? Here are my attempts:

Smartlink
+2 to hit for ranged attacks (smart-linked guns only)
Lesser Charm, Accuracy Bonus, rep cost: 16

Muscle Replacement
+1 to Dex and ST per level
Lesser Charm, Attribute bonus, rep cost: 20/level, max level 4

Wired Reflexes
+2 Init and +1 half action per level, max level 3
Spell Effect: Haste (sort of), item level 5, rep cost: 6/15/30

Those look like some pretty high prices. Either the power level of the cyber has to be toned down, or Chromed has to provide a lot of rep.
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ludomastro
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« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2012, 12:41:08 AM »

Oh, this is absolutely something that MUST be tackled.  I only ask that we solve the races before we start creating an entire gear chapter and multiple new mechanics to support it.

Honestly, addressing some of the imbalances is part of what I want to accomplish.  Min/maxing, to a degree, is fine.  Finding out, "You did it wrong.  Your character will suck!" is never fun.  If we can balance the options while retaining the core feel of things, that would be a marked improvement to me.

Please don't misunderstand, I want all of this.  I just want to make sure we have a reasonably solid foundation before moving on to the next thing.
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2012, 01:23:11 AM »

Quote from: SR/FC correspondence
Body | Agility | Reaction | Strength | Charisma | Intuition | Logic | Will
Constitution | Dexterity/Defence | Reflex/Initiative | Strength | Charisma | Wisdom | Intelligence | Will/Resolve

Here's another take on the various species.  I think we are getting closer:

I'm not a huge fan of the over reliance on plain stat bumps which is why I deliberately cut them down in the troll and removed them from the dwarf

Quote
(click to show/hide)
Small bonuses across the board better reflect the source material.

Not really. The toolkits used by the system have some similarities but they are different .

I specifically used No Pain because it replicates (the entertaining) 2/3rds of the benefit of the Iron Will feat. Similarly, Lumbering very nicely gives a feel for a more sluggish metatype that can be ore easily manhandled, while Crunch and Improved Stability replicate most of the effect of a bump to Strength (plus, a certain physical willfulness). I also think dumping the bump to knowledge checks does far more to reduce them to Gimli clones than anything else: the setting fluff tells us they're disproportionally smart comared to the other 4 metatypes

And as you see from the table above, Dwarves have no business getting any sort of wisdom bump.

(click to show/hide)
Replacing IIR... with Deep Thought and Inquisitive Mind gives a more textured quality to dwarven intellect. Just declaring them the ultra low range of medium as others have suggested removes the issue of fewer wound points so to cheat on the size issue (and justify the ful 3 pt feat cost) we keep Lumbering and add Restricted Actions to give them some form of social penalty as all the other non-humans have while playing up the setting fluff that their small stature means they just don't get the amount of respect their regular sized cousins do.

Also note that I changed the details of ImpStab to remove the mention of trample and replaced it with "resisting grapple checks", for reasons that will become clear in the section dealing with trolls.

Quote
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I swapped in Always Ready to reflect fluff and the minor bonus to quickness.

No real argument there. However, try this on for size:

(click to show/hide)
Always Ready really says Species feat to me (everyone else needs cybernetics), so Light Sleeper still allows them to react at times most others can't. Comely gives them a Charisma boost, an extra style feat and an Impress boost, but makes being so damned pretty -- and having eyes called out as being somehow different to humans -- a problem. Charming gives them even more social monster ability.

Quote
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Growing up on the streets means leaning skills to take care of yourself (extra Origin) and you learn how to fight early in life, if only for the last helping of soy lasagna at home on Sundays (Unarmed).

No, not really. Their intellectual limitations argues quite elegantly against an extra origin skill. Removing both their team support (Pull Together) AND their intra-racial support (Close Ranks) abilities also makes them staggeringly less intra-socially organised than the setting paints them as being. Improved stability is a poor fit -- the whole point of the ability is to compensate for reduced capacity due to size or to cheat around the cap on player character size, and they're already getting a bump to both strength and constitution.

(click to show/hide)
If you honestly can't stand pull together -- which is a shame as part of their theme in Shadowrun is that Orks aren't the hyper aggressive dumb thugs they're stereotyped as -- try this. I'm playing a little loose with the enlightened skill because while PITTL works out at around 1 point when you take apart Eastern Hoard it's kinda a weak 1 pt.

Quote
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Being a massive hulking "brute" means that people are going to notice you, pretty much whatever you do.  Sadly, most if not all your attempts to persuade them seem to come across as threats.

This build and its needless return to the 4/2 stat bump completely and utterly misses the point the SR doesn't calculate physical durability due to size the way d20 does: Large and its extra wound points is easily half the point of the SR Body bump. Similarly, removing Improved Stability makes utterly no sense given the phenomenal strength of trolls AND means that its worthless for them to invest in the wrecking ball feat as there is now no-one AT ALL that trample works against (trample requires a difference of 2 size categories -- if you want to be stomping mediums, you have to be huge, which player characters can't be. This is why Giants have IS in their statblock).

Lumbering was dumped because once you read the book, it becomes very clear that trolls aren't physically slow. They have the fastest base speed in the game, no reaction penalty, and their hit to Dex is handily modled by the -1 Defence penalty they inherently suffer due to being large. Similarly, not only is there absolutely nothing in SR that says that trolls are inherently any worse at being stealthy -- or indeed, socially adroit -- than any other metatype, but size is already factored into the Blend and Sneak checks (check out FC pg 71)

I also very specifically gave them the wisdom penalty to reflect their decreased Intuition (a hit no other metatype takes) as the trouble they have with their poor education was adroitly handled by the restricted action placed on the various checks .

(click to show/hide)
Of all the metatypes I stand by the Troll the most, the only change being to alter Uneducated to Uncertain, throwing in Impress alongside Knowledge checks.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 01:36:14 AM by Mister Andersen » Logged

MikeS
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« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2012, 01:24:44 AM »

Incidentally, where are the Race/Specialty/etc creation guidelines?
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2012, 01:38:00 AM »

In the Master Craft section of the wiki. They tend to be purely the ones that have been published to date; I've been using some of my own design based on them.
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« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2012, 10:42:06 AM »

Mr. A, it is important to note that you are referring to SR4, whereas I (and I think Ludo, too), are referring to SR3 for source material. The two are quite different, not only in core mechanics, but also in flavor, and specific things were changed about individual races. IMO, SR4 is an inferior game. I've tried to like it, and it does somethings better (like scaling), but if I were to run an SR campaign right now, it'd definitely be SR3, maybe with a few small tweaks.

One thing that changed is attributes. SR3 had Body, Quickness, Str, Cha, Int, Will as base attributes. Reaction was derived: (Int+Quick)/2. So if the has a -1 to Quick and -2 to Int, he most definitely has a penalty to Reaction. In SR3, movement = Quick, with a running modifier that is the same for everyone (3x), only dwarfs are slower (2x). Since the Troll is the only race with a penalty to Quick, he will be slower than the rest on average, so I think Lumbering is appropriate.

I'm coming more around to your view, Mr. A, that more things might be modeled without attribute bonuses. On the whole, attributes are much less important than they are in FC. The most important thing they do is provide a cap up to which skills may be raised to for low cost, thus you will want to have a high Cha, eg, when you want to play the social monster, because then you will pay less for the high Etiquette, Leadership, and Negotiation. Other than that, they are used as defaults for skills you don't have, but defaulting usually has a high penalty.
What else do attributes do?

Body soaks damage. Body also resists poison and disease. A body bonus should give extra vitality in FC, and raise Fort. Trolls can soak a lot of damage. A Troll in an armor jacket shrugs of all small arm fire and only starts sweating when hit with full auto blasts or big guns. They are very hard to take down with physical damage.

Str determines how much damage melee and unarmed combat does, more so than in FC. Damage for a sword is Str+2, and most melee characters will have at least STR 6. Trolls, again, are very scary here.

Quickness affects reaction (and thus ini) and the combat dice pool (more on pools later).

Int affects pretty much every dice pool, and gives you points for knowledge skills (which are more like interests)

Will affects most dice pools, and is also used to resist spells and spell drain (when a spell is cast, it either inflicts mental or physical damage on the caster, determined by its power; it is absolutely essential to have a high Will as Mage/Shaman). It maps over very well onto Wisdom.

Cha is useful for mages. Summoning Spirits is based on Cha, as are astral projection STR.

Dice pools: these are dice that can be used once per turn, divvied up however you choose. They can be used to improve attack rolls and to resist damage. They are also the only thing that can be used to outright avoid an attack, rather than soak it. The Combat pool is (Int+Wil+Quick)/2, and you can see how that can easily be more total dice than an individual skill or attribute might bring. Again, the weaknesses of the troll line up so that his combat pool is lower compared to the other races, so Lumbering seems appropriate, as does a penalty to Defense.

Using these guidelines, we can probably reduce the stat modifications. I would maintain the original differences, though: a troll should have both more Con and more Str than an orc, eg.
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ludomastro
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« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2012, 06:10:17 PM »

AND here is the first thing that I should have settled.  I don't do setting conversions very often; thus, my lack of experience.  The only reason I attempted this one is b/c my wife asked me to.  I prefer the fluff and mechanics of the earlier SR games (2nd and 3rd especially) but understand that 4.a* is the current version.

My goal is to capture the feel of the setting.  e.g. We NEED cyberware.  We'll worry about the HOW of cyberware (use an Essence stat or not, create a fourth Prize category, etc.) later.  But, cyberware has to be there.

To prevent problems in the future, we'll assume 4th Ed. for now.  However, I and apparently MikeS will want backwards compatibility for earlier editions.  Outside of decking/hacking and some cyberware, this should be straightforward.  In this specific instance, we'll use the 4th Ed. rules for races.

* 4.a = Shadowrun, Twentieth Anniversary Edition (an edited version of 4th Edition).  Since I don't own this one, I'll be referring to 4th Ed.

MikeS
The differences between the stats in 3rd and 4th are not critical due to many of the reasons you outlined.  I am fine with most of what Mr. A has recommended thus far.  I'm going to do a final review this afternoon and then make some decisions.

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MilitiaJim
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« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2012, 09:57:40 AM »

Once we get the races sorted out, we need to fix one of my pet peeves:  Ammo.  Dammit, all heavy pistols don't use the same ammo!  Submachine guns use pistol ammo!  WHAARRGRBLE!  Anyway, we can fix that later.
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« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2012, 11:17:27 AM »

Once we get the races sorted out, we need to fix one of my pet peeves:  Ammo.  Dammit, all heavy pistols don't use the same ammo!  Submachine guns use pistol ammo!  WHAARRGRBLE!  Anyway, we can fix that later.

I assumed that the setting had an implicit "in the future weapon calibers are agreed upon" sort of thing.  Like NATO rounds, but more so.  So everyone uses ".45ACP" for their "heavy pistols" and so on.  SMGs are a different matter, but that was my in-setting assumption on the other one.
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MilitiaJim
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« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2012, 11:44:56 AM »

I assumed that the setting had an implicit "in the future weapon calibers are agreed upon" sort of thing.  Like NATO rounds, but more so.  So everyone uses ".45ACP" for their "heavy pistols" and so on.  SMGs are a different matter, but that was my in-setting assumption on the other one.
Minus the fact that you can run .45ACP through Derringers, and .22lr through 1911s.  Heck, they even make pistols that use rifle rounds.  I understand the desire for simplification, but they did it in such a reality breaking way.

I can totally see there being a couple of major corp cartridges, and a few more cartridges popular with street samurai or gangers or what-have-you.  (Lone Star's distinctively loud sidearm being one.  [That was Lone Star, right?])

Come to think of it, since none of the weapons in Shadowrun are in SC 2.0, Ares Macrotech anyone, we can test run some gun design work right here.
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"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)
ludomastro
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« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2012, 02:18:14 PM »

I'm going to do a final review this afternoon and then make some decisions.

Something about "the best laid plans of mice and men."  Anyway, that afternoon turned into last night, turned into today at lunch.

Elves: Mr. A's Take 4
Orks: Mr. A's Take 2
Trolls: Mr. A's Take 4, with a small change.  We'll remove Knowledge checks from Restricted Actions.  It stays in Uneducated.  Otherwise, unchanged.

You'll notice that Dwarves aren't listed.  I didn't bring my books to work today so there's something I want to check at home before I finalize them.
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