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Arahain
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« on: August 13, 2012, 08:49:00 AM »

Hi! I bought the PDF of Mistborn Adventure Game and I've read the first 210 pages (including the part about combat). So far almost everything seems clear and cool (I really like the rules!) but I have some problems with combat.
The problem is with the action dice rules.

I'll start with an example:
Hero H fights against villain B. H has Wits 5, V has Wits4, so the villain has to declare first. He declares a steelpush with 6 dice against H. Now H declares a Physique attack (8 dice) with his dueling cane.

Question 1: Does the villain get a chance to defend himself using steel (he could for example use the coins to distract the Hero, rather than damaging him directly and use the remaining dice to attack H), or would he have to switch to physique?

Question 2: If the Hero had 8 dice, could he use 4 for the attack and 4 to dodge the coins? Or could he only use those Action Dice to defend himself with the dueling cane (so it would only work if V had also attacked with Physique)?

My first impression was that the first answers fit for both questions (or at least for the second). But after reading the combat example I'm not sure anymore.

The point where I got confused is on page 208. Thorrow wants to attack Carrow with his 13 AD (using physique). But then Carrow starts his funny Ironpull, resulting in Thorrow declaring another action.... Dodge, using 1/2 of his physique. Couldn't he have attacked with 6 Dice (before Carrow) while still saving 7 of the dice for defense? Since both (attack and dodge) use physique, this should be possible, shouldn't it?

Thank you for your answers!
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Arahain
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dbmeboy
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« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2012, 10:03:48 AM »

My understanding of the rules would indicate that it doesn't even matter that dodging also uses physique, unused action dice from any declared action become defense dice (or action dice can be used as defense dice before acting).
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« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2012, 12:38:28 PM »

Hi! I bought the PDF of Mistborn Adventure Game and I've read the first 210 pages (including the part about combat). So far almost everything seems clear and cool (I really like the rules!) but I have some problems with combat.
The problem is with the action dice rules.

Hi and welcome to the boards! Glad to hear you're enjoying the game.

Quote
I'll start with an example:
Hero H fights against villain B. H has Wits 5, V has Wits4, so the villain has to declare first. He declares a steelpush with 6 dice against H. Now H declares a Physique attack (8 dice) with his dueling cane.

Question 1: Does the villain get a chance to defend himself using steel (he could for example use the coins to distract the Hero, rather than damaging him directly and use the remaining dice to attack H), or would he have to switch to physique?

Yes, he actually has to defend himself using his Action Dice pool, as declared in Step 1. Remember, when you declare an action and form pools, you do *not* say how many dice you're going to spend on your declared action - only your intent Smiley The system is deliberately abstracted here, but if you or the Narrator wanted to describe your defenses within the context of your declared actions (such as using your Steel to defend) that's awesome Smiley

Quote
Question 2: If the Hero had 8 dice, could he use 4 for the attack and 4 to dodge the coins? Or could he only use those Action Dice to defend himself with the dueling cane (so it would only work if V had also attacked with Physique)?

Again, once the Action Dice pool is formed, it can be used for the action as declared and/or defense, without restriction beyond requiring you to spend at least 2 dice. So in your example, the Hero who declared an attack with his cane and got 8 dice could use 4 to attack and 4 to defend; 2 to attack, 3 to defend against one opponent and another 3 to defend against a different opponent later, etc. There's no way for everyone to know during the declaration phase what everyone else will do (that's sort of the point) so spending Defense Dice is a "tax" against your intended action with no strings attached.

Quote
My first impression was that the first answers fit for both questions (or at least for the second). But after reading the combat example I'm not sure anymore.

The point where I got confused is on page 208. Thorrow wants to attack Carrow with his 13 AD (using physique). But then Carrow starts his funny Ironpull, resulting in Thorrow declaring another action.... Dodge, using 1/2 of his physique. Couldn't he have attacked with 6 Dice (before Carrow) while still saving 7 of the dice for defense? Since both (attack and dodge) use physique, this should be possible, shouldn't it?

In the example, Paul chooses to change his action, but Thorrow did not necessarily need to change his action to dodge; he could have acted using his 13 AD, spent 7 on the attack to see if he can disable Carrow, and keep the remaining 6 dice in his pool for later Defense. Sometimes, the examples have to exist to serve the rules they're trying to explain - we needed to show an example of a changed action + how it affects the order of actions, as well as Total Defense, and this does both at once. Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2013, 04:28:34 PM »

One similar question:

Perhaps its my fault, but I can not find exact rules for Allomancy vs. physical combat. What happens if I wants to use Allomancy in a fight but must defend myself in a close combat

For example: If an Allomancer is trying to use Allomancy in a combat but is attacked by a guard using nonmetal weapons, what can he do?

- If the guard comes first, the Allomancer may change his mind and defend physically instead of using Allomancy.
- If he does not change his mind and is willing to use Allomancy, what are his options? Does he get Physique defense dices in addition to his metal, or he can not defend himself (like by running two steps)? Or can he form defense dices from Steel/Iron (such as: moving metal objects to distract the soldier?)

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« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2013, 06:49:26 PM »

Or can he form defense dices from Steel/Iron (such as: moving metal objects to distract the soldier?)

That is what I have always done. The coinshot pushes against a random door hinge to dodge the blow, or the lurcher pulls on it. The rioter shifts his target to the attacker to make him hesitate just enough to dodge. The  smoker just sits there and takes it like a man!

Once you have the action dice, you got to use them, and only them.
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SirJerric
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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2013, 06:50:42 PM »

For example: If an Allomancer is trying to use Allomancy in a combat but is attacked by a guard using nonmetal weapons, what can he do?

Let me see if I can make a clear description.

You have (at minimum) two participants here, though it sounds like the Allomancer is not targeting the guard, so there may be a third person (not knowing what action, it is hard to be sure).

Actions are declared in order of Wits, low to high. Since the Allomancer is having trouble with choice of action, he must have a lower Wits than the guard (or was surprised).

So Allomancer declares use of Allomancy, and receives Power Rating +/- modifiers worth of Action dice.
The guard declares a physical attack, receiving Physique +/- modifiers worth of Action dice.

The character with the largest Action dice pool acts first.
* If the guard has more Action dice: Guard chooses 2-10 dice (up to a max of all Action dice) to use for the attack. Allomancer chooses 2-10 dice (again, only up to the limit of his Action dice) to use for the defense. Both parties roll and compare results. Remainder of Guard's dice are now Defense dice. Remainder of Allomancer's dice are still Action dice and his new position in the turn order is lowered to match.
* If the Allomancer has more Action dice, he has more options:
*1* Carry through with the action: If this is targeting the guard, throwing everything in to maximize the hit may be best. If against another target, then use the minimum that you can to act and the rest will be available for defense.
*2* Skip the action and put all dice toward defense.
*3* Declare a new action: Calculate the new action's Action dice supply, but cut the number in half (round up). Allomancer is now the last person to act this round. Might be worth it if he has a strong Pewter rating and high Physique and a shield and defensive circumstances (that is to say, "new action" is an unusual choice).

- If the guard comes first, the Allomancer may change his mind and defend physically instead of using Allomancy.
If he wants, he can use all Action dice to defend and thereby forfeit his action.

- If he does not change his mind and is willing to use Allomancy, what are his options? Does he get Physique defense dices in addition to his metal,
No. The only way to add more dice is a Reaction stunt, and those don't supply from your Physique.

or he can not defend himself (like by running two steps)?
To run two steps would apply rule *3* above, so the Allomancer would end up with no Action dice and acting last in the round. This would be a very bad idea.

Or can he form defense dices from Steel/Iron
This would require either "Iron Redirection" or "Steel Deflection", two of the Reaction stunts, and already moving metal in the area (based on the rules, pages 307 and 313). Since you said the guard has nonmetal weapons, I assume he has no metal armor, belt buckles, boot nails, or any other metal on his person.

(such as: moving metal objects to distract the soldier?)
Doing this as a distraction would again invoke rule *3*, unless the declared action was already moving an object into the guard's area, in which case I would not rule the adjusted motion a new action.
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« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2013, 03:17:58 PM »

You have (at minimum) two participants here, though it sounds like the Allomancer is not targeting the guard, so there may be a third person (not knowing what action, it is hard to be sure).

Actions are declared in order of Wits, low to high. Since the Allomancer is having trouble with choice of action, he must have a lower Wits than the guard (or was surprised).

So Allomancer declares use of Allomancy, and receives Power Rating +/- modifiers worth of Action dice.
The guard declares a physical attack, receiving Physique +/- modifiers worth of Action dice.


Perfect description Wink



The character with the largest Action dice pool acts first.
* If the guard has more Action dice: Guard chooses 2-10 dice (up to a max of all Action dice) to use for the attack. Allomancer chooses 2-10 dice (again, only up to the limit of his Action dice) to use for the defense. Both parties roll and compare results. Remainder of Guard's dice are now Defense dice. Remainder of Allomancer's dice are still Action dice and his new position in the turn order is lowered to match.

At this point however there is something I dont understand. If I use Allomancy in order to attack (Steel, Iron, Zinc, Brass), how can I have any Defense Dices? In a physical combat my defense dices represent my tactics, movements etc. But can I form defense dices from a metal? E.G I have a Zinc rating of 6 and wants to riot fear in the heart of the enemy soldiers. May I form 4 dices to "attack" and spare the rest 2 for defense dices (= I dont attack with my full power so I can concentrate to avoid swords?)

Thank you for your help.
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« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2013, 11:15:09 PM »

I think the defense would be using a push or pull against some other metal in the area to help you dodge better.
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SirJerric
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« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2013, 10:04:30 PM »

At this point however there is something I dont understand. If I use Allomancy in order to attack (Steel, Iron, Zinc, Brass), how can I have any Defense Dices? In a physical combat my defense dices represent my tactics, movements etc. But can I form defense dices from a metal? E.G I have a Zinc rating of 6 and wants to riot fear in the heart of the enemy soldiers. May I form 4 dices to "attack" and spare the rest 2 for defense dices (= I dont attack with my full power so I can concentrate to avoid swords?)

Thank you for your help.

To put the answer in terms of the rules: yes, your zinc example there is exactly how it is done.

But, since I spent so much time on legalistic details last time, allow me to try explaining the solution from a narrative perspective. If you don't allow, well, no one is making you read my posts. =)

Anytime a character takes an action that has a chance of failure, they are given a pool of dice to roll.

When this isn't in a conflict, they have the opportunity to devote their full attention and skill to the task, so they roll up to 10 dice with the remainder becoming auto-nudges (for situations in which the character is very capable).

When they seek to take the same action in a conflict, they are given the same number of Action Dice (unless circumstances modify it in some way). But they are in conflict. They cannot give full attention to the task because they need to be aware of their opposition, thus there are no auto-nudges in conflict.

From here, the character has to decide just how hard they will focus on their action.
* Do they throw their all at the goal and hope that the success is sufficient to delay or deter their foes?
* Do they pay attention to the opponent's maneuvers and only give half a mind to accomplishing the task this round?
* Do they try for a balanced approach?
* Do they give up their original idea when they realize the enemy is too immediate a threat?
* Do they realize they overlooked an important factor and try to change tactics in the midst of the action?
All of these choices are represented in the distribution of Action dice versus Defence dice.

But why does the character defend from the Action dice their action generated instead of dice from the appropriate defensive style? This is a tricky question; but in some regard, I already gave the answer.

Consider a child trying to write, carefully shaping each stroke, fully focused on the tool in their hand and the point where it touches the surface. Consider an adult, scribbling down a to-do list while speaking on the phone. When someone does something that they are good at, they are more successful with less effort than another person who is doing something unusual.

Conflict rounds represent very short time spans, and each round's Action dice measure how well the character can divide their attention. So if a Zing Misting elects to try rioting during a conflict, he will only have as much ability to defend as his experience (rating) allows.

The specific form of the defense is left to the player/narrator. Did the character lean to the side or step away? Did he steelpush off a hinge or jump over someone with his pewter? Did he riot the attacker's feeling of pity enough to cause a hesitation at a critical moment of a presentation? If the attacker's roll went really sour, perhaps the character's mockery struck a nerve and enraged his attacker?

Bonus cookies to anyone who noticed that my explanation was carefully worded to be applied to all three types of conflict before they reached the last paragraph. =)
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Nemovonutopia
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« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2013, 02:38:39 PM »

I am having an issue of when movement happens in combat and the advantages wit gives.

So if a pewterarm with 3 wits fighting a normal person with 5 wits...

The pewterarm declares that he will hit the other, the normal person declares he will take 2 steps back to avoid the attack. As I originally interpreted the rules, the pewerterarm would always hit first since he would have more action dice, so I don't see the advantage of having higher wits in that situation.

A solution I came up with is that everyone moves at the same time, so those with higher wits could actually position themselves tactically in response to what was going on. I still have not decided if this is a good idea or not.

Am I just not realizing what advantages wits normally give?
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Crafty_Alex
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« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2013, 03:20:59 PM »

Welcome to the boards!

I am having an issue of when movement happens in combat and the advantages wit gives.

So if a pewterarm with 3 wits fighting a normal person with 5 wits...

The pewterarm declares that he will hit the other, the normal person declares he will take 2 steps back to avoid the attack. As I originally interpreted the rules, the pewerterarm would always hit first since he would have more action dice, so I don't see the advantage of having higher wits in that situation.

Part of the issue IMO is ths sort of pure reaction to another character's action, rather than declaration of your own action, is not really playing to the defender's strength. Just trying to move away would only grant him Defense Dice equal to his Physique, which is pretty obviously sub-optimal considering the Pewterarm is faster and better physically. That the Pewterarm could run down a slower character even if that character reacted more quickly makes perfect logical sense to me. The best solution, obviously is don't get in a fight with a Thug Smiley

Quote
A solution I came up with is that everyone moves at the same time, so those with higher wits could actually position themselves tactically in response to what was going on. I still have not decided if this is a good idea or not.

If you did it that way, I don't think it shatters the system though higher Wits characters get much more powerful in physical Conflicts, because they always get to run away from physically capable characters like thugs (thus forcing those characters to Change Actions and halve their pools AND go last). The current system as it stands now is more balanced, in that it rewards those who act most in their wheelhouse (e.g. forming the largest Action Dice pools) to reap the benefits of doing so.

Another, smaller tweak you could make is that those characters who choose to forgo an normal pool-forming action (pg 177 "actions that produce no dice") to act as if their Pool was 10 because they are concentrating on simpler actions such as throwing a level or moving. That at least gives your reaction-mover a chance to run at the same time the Thug wants to run him down.

Quote
Am I just not realizing what advantages wits normally give?

Higher Wits is not a trump - it's merely one part of the larger equation of Conflict, 1 part of which Pewterarms are very good at (Physical Conflict). Put the same characters in a social or mental Conflict and you'd see a completely different dynamic.

Higher Wits is good because it lets you see the scope of the field before choosing your action. Reacting in this system is, by design, much tougher than acting - Mistborn is a world where the Heroes act, rather than curling up in a ball or hiding away Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2013, 03:28:43 PM »

First, welcome to the boards! Now, let's see if we can't help out with your problem.

I am having an issue of when movement happens in combat and the advantages wit gives.

So if a pewterarm with 3 wits fighting a normal person with 5 wits...

The pewterarm declares that he will hit the other, the normal person declares he will take 2 steps back to avoid the attack. As I originally interpreted the rules, the pewerterarm would always hit first since he would have more action dice, so I don't see the advantage of having higher wits in that situation.

A solution I came up with is that everyone moves at the same time, so those with higher wits could actually position themselves tactically in response to what was going on. I still have not decided if this is a good idea or not.

Am I just not realizing what advantages wits normally give?

Let me see if I understand. From your example, you seem to expect that a higher Wits score should trump a higher Physique score in when it comes to acting first in Physical Combat. Is that right?

Now, your example could use a few additional details. For example, what is the starting distance? Are they standing right next to each other? How did the Pewterarm describe his action? What tools are being used? What other conditions and circumstances are in effect? How many Action Dice does the Pewterarm get compared to the regular guy? (This will depend on declared actions.) Also, try to remember that pewter doesn't just grant strength, but speed and agility, too. There is a reason why those who can benefit from pewter are feared.

Your final question is probably a matter of perspective and expectations.

A few things:
Not all conflicts are Physical. Wits applies to Mental and Social conflicts, too.
Knowing what the enemy is bound to do* before committing your own resources is a huge advantage. At worst, you can dump everything into defense. But you are also not limited to Physical attacks, even when in a Physical conflict. For example, you could use Wits to feint or stall for time. Depending on the action, your Action Dice might still be higher than the Pewterarm, meaning you'll go first.

*The enemy can change his action, of course, but at a severe penalty. See "Declare a New Action" on pg. 180.

Does that help?

**Edit - And Ninja'd by the creator!**
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« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2013, 06:39:18 PM »

Am I just not realizing what advantages wits normally give?
Alex and Dreamstreamer's answers to this pretty well cover it. I just want to add that declaring last is a much bigger advantage in a combat with multiple people on each side. That way you will know, for example, which enemy/s are attacking you and so which ones you want to hit first, or one of the enemies might be attacking a team member who is down to 1 of the applicable resillience and you hope to stop the enemy before they can hit your ally, whereas if you declared first you might find yourself just hitting an enemy who was attacking, say, a keeper player who had tapped a fair chunk of gold.
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« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2013, 08:28:51 PM »

Thanks for the feedback. I've only recently got to have conflicts with multiple people so I am still testing things out. Also, I read someone say on one of the other threads that dice pools above 10 in combat do not give free nudges. Is that expressed in the rulebook? Ive tried to find it.

Quote
Let me see if I understand. From your example, you seem to expect that a higher Wits score should trump a higher Physique score in when it comes to acting first in Physical Combat. Is that right?

I was originally thinking that being react first (highest wit) meant that you should be able to avoid what others are doing. But the way y'all state it made me realize that being able to react first mentally does not mean they react first physically.
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lord Claincy Ffnord
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« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2013, 09:51:52 PM »

Also, I read someone say on one of the other threads that dice pools above 10 in combat do not give free nudges. Is that expressed in the rulebook? Ive tried to find it.
This is correct, I don't remember where it was stated but I do remember that it was explicitly said that the extra dice go into defense dice, Not into free nudges. I think this is because in direct combat having free nudges could be ridiculously powerful, particularly for someone like a keeper tapping pewter in a physical conflict. Even a base character thug can easily get above 10 action dice if built right. It also seems to me that it is much easier to get more than 10 action dice than it is to get pools above 10 outside of combat which may also be part of why it works that way.

I was originally thinking that being react first (highest wit) meant that you should be able to avoid what others are doing. But the way y'all state it made me realize that being able to react first mentally does not mean they react first physically.
Yep, that's right. The system confused me a lot first time I tried to use it. Now I understand it I like it a lot.
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