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Author Topic: Spycraft Third edition Wishlist and Suggestions Mega-thread  (Read 25407 times)
tfwfh
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« Reply #270 on: March 26, 2012, 11:40:52 AM »

I think one of the easiest ways to make guns scary is to just make it possible for a single crit to put a PC into negative wound points.  It wouldn't have to be guaranteed, but just having even the smallest guns do a maximum of 10 or more damage would go a long way towards convincing players to really be sure before they bring out the guns.

Of course, I am of the opinion that any bullet is just about as deadly as any other bullet, and the benefits that big bullets have over small ones is better penetration and better accuracy over long ranges.
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MilitiaJim
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« Reply #271 on: March 26, 2012, 01:49:06 PM »

Of course, I am of the opinion that any bullet is just about as deadly as any other bullet, and the benefits that big bullets have over small ones is better penetration and better accuracy over long ranges.
An opinion rebutted by reality.  Larger diameter bullets penetrate less that narrower bullets.  Greater mass means the bullet has more energy, but if it penetrates too well in can leave without imparting much energy to the target, and not necessarily fatal injury.

And about fearing the NPC guns, don't forget about the Marine who caught nine AK rounds in the chest at point blank range and walked out with a couple of broken ribs.  3d6 or 2d8+1 x 9 vs DR 9 (Modular Tactical Armor with Guards, Trauma Plates, and a Modern Ballistic Helmet) and he was down a couple wound points at the end.
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"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)
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« Reply #272 on: March 26, 2012, 01:53:58 PM »

Want guns to hurt? Just max all damage values as a campaign quality.
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Dreamstreamer
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« Reply #273 on: March 26, 2012, 02:19:55 PM »

I think one of the easiest ways to make guns scary is to just make it possible for a single crit to put a PC into negative wound points.  It wouldn't have to be guaranteed, but just having even the smallest guns do a maximum of 10 or more damage would go a long way towards convincing players to really be sure before they bring out the guns.

This would make sense for a "realistic" campaign quality. On that note, what is the default "realism" for a Spycraft game? Cinematic realism or something more lethal out of the box?

Of course, I am of the opinion that any bullet is just about as deadly as any other bullet, and the benefits that big bullets have over small ones is better penetration and better accuracy over long ranges.

I would agree with that when talking about the same types/categories of firearms or saying that all bullets can be lethal. That being said, the odds of someone surviving a pistol round to the body are much higher* than those of surviving a rifle or shotgun round, especially with modern medicine. Of course, survival does not mean getting up and kicking the crap out of the bad guy that just shot you...

...
And about fearing the NPC guns, don't forget about the Marine who caught nine AK rounds in the chest at point blank range and walked out with a couple of broken ribs.

What about the Highway Patrol officer who caught a single .25 caliber pistol round in the armpit (where I've never seen protection in any armor) that went between his ribs and clipped his aorta. He bled out in less than a minute, but not before hitting his assailant's center mass with five of the six hollowpoints in his service revolver. His assailant survived with five slugs in his fat belly, his jean jacket preventing the hollowpoints from working as designed.

Weird things happen.

*One of the firearms instructors at the law enforcement academy I attended said that, statistically, people had a 90% chance of surviving pistol wounds. That chance dropped to 10% when dealing with shotguns and rifles. Of course, part of that training was to develop a survival mindset, so he also talked about how movies and television shows have conditioned people to think that they are supposed to fall over and die when shot, regardless of weapon used.
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tfwfh
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« Reply #274 on: March 26, 2012, 02:43:22 PM »

This would make sense for a "realistic" campaign quality. On that note, what is the default "realism" for a Spycraft game? Cinematic realism or something more lethal out of the box?

I think the 24 TV show provides a good example of a balance between then two.  Bullets fly with remarkable frequency, but hardly anyone is ever hit (you can attribute that to vitality damage as much as missing).  But, when people are hit, it's a seriously big deal and hardly anyone ever survives it.

Also, please don't confuse this with me saying anything else at all positive about 24.
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« Reply #275 on: March 26, 2012, 09:29:00 PM »

@MikeS: Sounds like an easy campaign quality.  You could make it that any check that is passed by a given margin is a critical success.  I'd make it start far higher then 6, but that's just me.  My gut says start at 10 to get a feel for it.  So someone has a DC15 check (first aid) and captain medicine the fantastic rolls a 27 - it's a critical, even if his dice was a 12.  It'd make Soldiers extremely lethal with a firearm (I don't have a problem there...).

@Dreamstreamer: Wouldn't the highway patrol mans fate be a fairly textbook critical hit?  So the solution to that (armour works when it works, and when it doesn't you're [censored]) seems to be to make critical hits downright nasty.

With regards to your shotgun point - I've always liked how GURPS handles shotguns.  If you're not familiar they basically count each piece of shot as a bullet (in Spycraft terms the gun always "autofires") - get hit point blank with all of them and you are rooted.  Far more so then a pistol round.
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MikeS
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« Reply #276 on: March 26, 2012, 11:45:08 PM »

@MikeS: Sounds like an easy campaign quality.  You could make it that any check that is passed by a given margin is a critical success.  I'd make it start far higher then 6, but that's just me.  My gut says start at 10 to get a feel for it.  So someone has a DC15 check (first aid) and captain medicine the fantastic rolls a 27 - it's a critical, even if his dice was a 12.  It'd make Soldiers extremely lethal with a firearm (I don't have a problem there...).

I agree that it should be higher. I just threw out some numbers. Basically, you want to to be around high enough that beginning characters will need around a 20 to succeed, under "normal" conditions. That's at least where I would start.

Quote
With regards to your shotgun point - I've always liked how GURPS handles shotguns.  If you're not familiar they basically count each piece of shot as a bullet (in Spycraft terms the gun always "autofires") - get hit point blank with all of them and you are rooted.  Far more so then a pistol round.

That's not what made shotguns deadly compared to other weapons, though. What made them deadly compared to pistols was that GURPS has blow-through, depending on hit location, and getting hit in the arm, eg, would waste half or more of a pistol's damage. The shotgun, on the other hand, rolls each of its 3-4 dice separately for location and applies the damage separately, so you pretty much never have blow-through and take all of the damage... enough to take out most characters. Unless you have armor, because that is applied separately against each die as well.
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« Reply #277 on: April 15, 2012, 12:47:45 PM »

Unless of course it's a tough mook (used when you want a NPC to last a certain number of hits)

Would anyone else be interested in seeing nub of this idea -- number of hits taken instead of random chance vs. damage taken -- become the basis of dealing with standard NPCs instead of calculating a damage save?  Or at the very least it strikes me as a highly viable CQ.
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tfwfh
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« Reply #278 on: April 15, 2012, 06:33:15 PM »

Unless of course it's a tough mook (used when you want a NPC to last a certain number of hits)

Would anyone else be interested in seeing nub of this idea -- number of hits taken instead of random chance vs. damage taken -- become the basis of dealing with standard NPCs instead of calculating a damage save?  Or at the very least it strikes me as a highly viable CQ.

Yes and no.  I do want a rocket launcher to be at least a little more dangerous than a tightly balled fist where standard NPCs are concerned.  But I also want standard NPCs to stop rolling 20s on their damage saves and ending up more durable than their special NPC bosses.  Maybe if there was a massive damage concept for standard NPCs, so that if they take X or more damage from a single attack, they automatically fail 1 damage save, and then if they're still alive they also roll for their new damage total.
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ludomastro
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« Reply #279 on: April 15, 2012, 08:10:07 PM »

Yes and no.  I do want a rocket launcher to be at least a little more dangerous than a tightly balled fist where standard NPCs are concerned.  But I also want standard NPCs to stop rolling 20s on their damage saves and ending up more durable than their special NPC bosses.  Maybe if there was a massive damage concept for standard NPCs, so that if they take X or more damage from a single attack, they automatically fail 1 damage save, and then if they're still alive they also roll for their new damage total.

This.  I've been running it that way for a while at the table and it works pretty well.  Course, I've been known to just drop things at dramatically appropriate moments as well.
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tfwfh
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« Reply #280 on: April 16, 2012, 12:14:55 AM »

I have a simple request.  If a class has an ability that grants bonus feats, that ability should just be called "bonus feat".  What kind of bonus feats a class gets is often a major factor in determining which one I'll use, and having to dig through half of their abilities before I find the bonus feat one is tedious.
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Sletchman
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« Reply #281 on: April 16, 2012, 12:41:59 AM »

Unless of course it's a tough mook (used when you want a NPC to last a certain number of hits)

Would anyone else be interested in seeing nub of this idea -- number of hits taken instead of random chance vs. damage taken -- become the basis of dealing with standard NPCs instead of calculating a damage save?  Or at the very least it strikes me as a highly viable CQ.

Yes and no.  I do want a rocket launcher to be at least a little more dangerous than a tightly balled fist where standard NPCs are concerned.  But I also want standard NPCs to stop rolling 20s on their damage saves and ending up more durable than their special NPC bosses.  Maybe if there was a massive damage concept for standard NPCs, so that if they take X or more damage from a single attack, they automatically fail 1 damage save, and then if they're still alive they also roll for their new damage total.

Might be worth mentioning that I've got a middle tier quality between "normal" and "mook".  It changes a Standards damage save to accumulated damage (instead of halving it).  I also hope that the "fail a damage save by 10 fails more then one" returns (I house ruled it back in in FC for Standards).  Dunno if that'll work for you though?

EDIT: That was more at tfwfh.  In answer to Mr A's original question, I wouldn't like to see it as a standard rule, but I think it makes a simple and pretty strong campaign quality (which I would very much like to see it, or at least a variant of it, as).
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 12:44:17 AM by Sletchman » Logged
Mister Andersen
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« Reply #282 on: September 18, 2012, 10:58:30 AM »

The Sagittarius
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