### Author Topic: Attacking vs active defense  (Read 1967 times)

#### dbmeboy

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##### Attacking vs active defense
« on: August 03, 2012, 12:59:28 PM »
Just to check that I understand the action dice system correctly:
My character in a physical contest can justify 8 dice in a normal attack or physique active defense. However, if he declares an attack against a character with a grave burden, he would get 2 extra action dice (for 10 total). He could then not attack on his turn, converting all 10 dice to defense dice, correct?

#### Crafty_Alex

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##### Re: Attacking vs active defense
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2012, 01:31:22 PM »
Just to check that I understand the action dice system correctly:
My character in a physical contest can justify 8 dice in a normal attack or physique active defense. However, if he declares an attack against a character with a grave burden, he would get 2 extra action dice (for 10 total). He could then not attack on his turn, converting all 10 dice to defense dice, correct?

Technically, it could work that way - however, if the player is deliberately using it to give himself more Defense Dice (rather than simply missing an opportunity to attack, or changing his mind), I would call shenanigans. If this becomes the case at your table, simply apply the Burden step as the action happens (thus, in your example, you would start with 8 action dice and use 4 of them to attack the opponent while exploiting a Grave Burden, you would roll 6 dice instead and leave 4 dice in your pool for later).
"Alex doesn't feel anything. He's more word processor than man anymore." - Krensky

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Alex Flagg
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#### dbmeboy

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##### Re: Attacking vs active defense
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2012, 02:17:32 PM »
Actually, I was trying to make sure I was cheating with my character because it seemed strange to me that I could do that.  In the actual case recently, I exploited burdens to get to 11 action dice and rolled 4 of them to attack, leaving 7 to defend.  One more active defense question:
If a character declares active defense and it turns out nobody attacks them, can they "change their action" at the end of the beat (they have 0 action dice so their turn would be last) to something else at the usual penalty?  Thanks.

#### Crafty_Alex

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##### Re: Attacking vs active defense
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2012, 10:06:33 AM »
Actually, I was trying to make sure I was cheating with my character because it seemed strange to me that I could do that.  In the actual case recently, I exploited burdens to get to 11 action dice and rolled 4 of them to attack, leaving 7 to defend.  One more active defense question:
If a character declares active defense and it turns out nobody attacks them, can they "change their action" at the end of the beat (they have 0 action dice so their turn would be last) to something else at the usual penalty?  Thanks.

Generally, that's not what we had in mind (we pictured Active Defense as you setting up with a shield/teammate/wall in front of you and watching for trouble). Part of the rule of changing your action is that you have to half your Action Dice, and if that would lower your Action Dice below 2, you cannot do it (page 180, option 2). So i would say no, per the RAW. Your GM may be more lenient, though.
"Alex doesn't feel anything. He's more word processor than man anymore." - Krensky

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" - Leonardo da Vinci

A reminder.

Alex Flagg
Crafty Games

#### dbmeboy

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##### Re: Attacking vs active defense
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2012, 11:04:04 AM »
Hmm, that's the answer I expected, but not for the reason I expected.  Maybe I'm not understanding the action change rules correctly, but I thought you got half of the dice based on the new action, which would allow you to switch from 0 dice to any action that gave you at least 4 before getting cut in half.  I figured that a character using active defense would never actually get a "turn" in which they could switch their action.
To give the example from play:
My thug was facing 2 GM controlled enemies.  I declared attacking enemy 1.  Enemy 1 went for active defense while enemy 2 attacked.  On the my turn, I decided to switch my attack to enemy 2 (even at half dice, I still had plenty to attack after pewter).  The question was whether enemy 1 could now change his mind and attack instead (at the half-dice penalty).

#### Crafty_Alex

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##### Re: Attacking vs active defense
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2012, 06:00:20 PM »
Hmm, that's the answer I expected, but not for the reason I expected.  Maybe I'm not understanding the action change rules correctly, but I thought you got half of the dice based on the new action, which would allow you to switch from 0 dice to any action that gave you at least 4 before getting cut in half.  I figured that a character using active defense would never actually get a "turn" in which they could switch their action.

Active Defense gives you no action dice, which you need at least 4 of to cut in half. So once you go down that path, you can't go back and gain action dice you don't have. You are right in essence - an actively defending character is basically opting out of taking a turn at all, so they never get a chance to change their action (they don't have a declaration at all).  To allow them to go active defense, then choose to declare an action well after everyone has declared theirs in step 1 is skirting the whole point of Step 1 in the first place.

Quote
To give the example from play:
My thug was facing 2 GM controlled enemies.  I declared attacking enemy 1.  Enemy 1 went for active defense while enemy 2 attacked.  On the my turn, I decided to switch my attack to enemy 2 (even at half dice, I still had plenty to attack after pewter).  The question was whether enemy 1 could now change his mind and attack instead (at the half-dice penalty).

Enemy 1 would not be able to go backwards from Active Defense to choosing an action - he is not in the Action Dice order of actions, so he has no opportunity to change to an action.
"Alex doesn't feel anything. He's more word processor than man anymore." - Krensky

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" - Leonardo da Vinci

A reminder.

Alex Flagg
Crafty Games

#### dbmeboy

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##### Re: Attacking vs active defense
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2012, 08:29:03 PM »
Ok, now I'm confused.  Which dice total gets cut in half when you change your action in general?  I thought you re-figured the action dice for the new action and then cut it in half... are you saying that you it should be the action dice from the previous action are cut in half?

Pg 180:
"The character's Action Dice are immediately refigured for the new action and halved (rounding up)... Each character may doe this only once per round and no character may do this if their new action produces only 2 Action Dice..."

(emphasis mine)

Again, I agree with the conclusion, but I'm just not understanding the part of your explanation about not having enough dice to cut in half, since it looks like you don't have to cut anything in half until after the new action's dice are figured.

#### Crafty_Alex

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##### Re: Attacking vs active defense
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2012, 08:36:55 AM »
It's very simple:

• If a character chooses Active Defense, all his Action Dice become Defense Dice, and he takes no action in the round.
• Changing your Action requires you to cut your Action Dice (not your current dice pool) in half. You cannot do this if your new Action Dice pool would be less than 2 after cutting.
• Thus, an Active Defending character (0 Action Dice) cannot change his action.

Quote
Again, I agree with the conclusion, but I'm just not understanding the part of your explanation about not having enough dice to cut in half, since it looks like you don't have to cut anything in half until after the new action's dice are figured.

Exactly. The Active Defending character has no Action Dice and has nothing to cut in half at all. Thus, they can't switch. Active Defense is not an option I expect to be used all that often, but it does save you some time when you know you're going to be hunkering down to weather a bunch of attacks.

EDIT: Formatting
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 12:01:21 PM by Crafty_Alex »
"Alex doesn't feel anything. He's more word processor than man anymore." - Krensky

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" - Leonardo da Vinci

A reminder.

Alex Flagg
Crafty Games

#### tecslicer

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##### Re: Attacking vs active defense
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2012, 11:23:29 AM »
So the active defender would roll, dice like someone being attacked with brass or zinc?

I.E.
Dude A hides behind a table while coinshot A fires coins, and Dude A rolls his physeque?

Lady B rallies her thoughts while Rioter b slams Brass at her, and Lady B rolls her wits?

#### Crafty_Alex

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##### Re: Attacking vs active defense
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2012, 12:03:00 PM »
So the active defender would roll, dice like someone being attacked with brass or zinc?

I.E.
Dude A hides behind a table while coinshot A fires coins, and Dude A rolls his physeque?

Lady B rallies her thoughts while Rioter b slams Brass at her, and Lady B rolls her wits?

Yes. The big advantage of Active Defense is you can choose what Attribute or Standing you want to use, based on your description of how you're defending.
"Alex doesn't feel anything. He's more word processor than man anymore." - Krensky

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" - Leonardo da Vinci

A reminder.

Alex Flagg
Crafty Games

#### dbmeboy

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##### Re: Attacking vs active defense
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2012, 12:45:00 PM »
So in the similar situation that you had declared taking two steps (another action that produces no action dice), you would likewise be unable to change action?  It seems like I should be able to declare a double move, and then when the turn comes up to actually move change to attack somebody who is now next to me that I didn't expect.  For sake of this example, let's say that action would normally have given me 6 AD, it would now be 3.  But you're saying that because the initial action produced no AD, I cannot change action (even though changing actions refigures the AD before cutting them in half)?

Edit:
I'm sorry if it seems like I'm trying to be difficult.  I just don't see anything about how the size of your AD pool before you change your actions has any effect, only the size produced by the new action.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 12:51:17 PM by dbmeboy »