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Author Topic: Grapple Benefits  (Read 2229 times)
meadicus
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« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2012, 12:06:11 PM »

Dissarm

Is that where you insult them before you take their weapon? Wink

That's what I get for typing a response on my phone when not yet awake :p

But on the subject, steal/manipulate any small item (wallet, keys, detonator). Maybe building up to more tricky stuff, (assault rifle with strap, shoes filled with explosives).

Also, grapple benefit: apply hand-cuffs/manacles
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TheTSKoala
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« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2012, 05:50:25 PM »

A side question that's related.  What would you consider activities such as Krav Maga and Aikido?  They clearly have a grapple aspect, but it's alot quicker than 12-18 seconds of struggling.  For example, a climb up shoulder throw into an arm bar?  Or disarming / twirling an opponent into the path of an enemy?  Has a human shield aspect, but only for a half action / round sort of timing.

(Edit:  Tablet posted before I was done typing.  Damnable thing.)
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 05:52:46 PM by TheTSKoala » Logged
Mister Andersen
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« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2012, 05:53:50 PM »

Just as a fundamental principle: special characters should be able to just spend an action die to escape a grapple involving a mundane entirely, or to escape being pinned (so revert to being held) in a grapple against another special. A campaign quality or feat benefit -- called, let's say, Stay In The Ring -- would remove the AD option against a special and reduce the benefit against a mundane to escaping pinned.

The ability to use someone as a meat shield is already a part of the pinned condition -- actually, a number of the suggestions so far seem to be --  so I don't think it specifically needs to be its own grapple benefit. Indeed the idea that it can exist without relying that condition is bizarre. However, I do like the idea of an advanced initiative action -- like parry --  that would allow you to benefit from the cover provided by a grapple opponent who is only held because baddies saying "Kill them both" when you least expect it is entirely a part of the experience.

Choking someone out is an absolute necessity for everyone to be able to access out of the box; it's one of the most common and indeed fundamental moves next to fighting for a weapon you see in cinematic grapple fights -- to the point that nerdy criminal profilers can get into desperate mutual strangulation fights with their stalkers. Rather than the suffocation rules (and all its fort saves), however, I think you could easily get away with LordK's suggestion of inflicting grades of fatigued here. At least against specials.

Silencing someone as a free action strikes me as something that should be part of the held condition -- but it also doubles the error range of your next check. Garrote basics would remove this additional error range (and give you a stance such that any mundane you grapple using said weapon is automatically considered held but any errors sneak or blend checks are automatically activated)

Absolutely there needs to be an option to take advantage of -- including damage -- surrounding scenery with your opponent. Backslamming your attacker into a wall to force them to let go is again a hugely common response in cinematic grappling.

And that brings size into things, because time and again, we're shown that smaller grapplers pretty much only ever manage to inflict the slowed rather than held condition on their opponent. So anyone at least a size category larger than their opponent should be able to choose move as a grapple benefit even if they're considered held -- make it a free action, just to stop rules conflict.

The disarm benefit should explicitly allow the use of the Expert Disarm feat. That keeps the action itself simple and the ability to manipulate an item as with either a trained action or the result of a botch (which do seem to happen an awful lot)
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« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2012, 09:25:06 PM »

There should be a feat -- probably at the end of an improvised weapon chain -- that allows you to use someone the same size as you as a screaming club, even if it is a use-it-and-lose-it option like Throw.
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TheTSKoala
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« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2012, 10:57:01 AM »



^-- A side question that's related.  What would you consider activities such as Krav Maga and Aikido?  They clearly have a grapple aspect, but it's alot quicker than 12-18 seconds of struggling.  For example, a climb up shoulder throw into an arm bar?  Or disarming / twirling an opponent into the path of an enemy?  Has a human shield aspect, but only for a half action / round sort of timing.

+20 Interwebs for Mister Andersen and his post of this on the FC board.  This is what I was asking about in regards to "grappling".
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Crafty_Alex
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« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2012, 12:15:43 PM »

^-- A side question that's related.  What would you consider activities such as Krav Maga and Aikido?  They clearly have a grapple aspect, but it's alot quicker than 12-18 seconds of struggling.  For example, a climb up shoulder throw into an arm bar?  Or disarming / twirling an opponent into the path of an enemy?  Has a human shield aspect, but only for a half action / round sort of timing.

I would definitely say stuff like Aikido, Krav Maga and Sambo all have grapple elements to them - after all, they rely on holding on to someone in order to strike repeatedly/throw/etc. The difference in duration IMO is that practitioners of those arts choose to end them with more advantageous benefits (chokes, throws, boots to heads) than to maintain in the traditional wrestling/submission contest that d20 focuses on.

Frex, in your animated GIF, I don't think that's grappling in the d20 sense. She just grabs a guy's wrist briefly to Trip him (half action), followed by a kick (half action). Just because you grab something on another person, rather than karate chopping them, doesn't automatically makes it a grapple.
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TheTSKoala
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« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2012, 11:01:22 AM »

Just saw Skyfall.  And my Marine buddy brought this up.. and we couldn't stop laughing.  And possibly a good 'goon' disability for grappling.

"Hollywood-trained Guards".  Guards can't use quick draw.  They may only make threats from 5ft away or less.  If they are more than 5 feet away, they will willingly try to close to melee range, even if they have a rifle or pistol, in order to issue commands.
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Jake
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« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2012, 09:59:35 AM »

"Hollywood-trained Guards".  Guards can't use quick draw.  They may only make threats from 5ft away or less.  If they are more than 5 feet away, they will willingly try to close to melee range, even if they have a rifle or pistol, in order to issue commands.

+1


I would like to see some neck snapping in SC. Wrestling Supremacy should give a trick along the lines of Bow/Polearm/Knife Supremacy.
Twist Off Cap: Once per round when you pin a standard NPC he immediately fails his damage save.
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2012, 12:30:39 PM »

Prone and sprawled. Currently, the first is when you intend to be on the ground, the second is when someone else does. It strikes me however that the two positions/conditions can correspond to being face-down and face-up, and as such that might lead to differing tactics being open and closed?

Certainly, I think that if you're suffering either condition, you should be treated as being a Size smaller than usual -- the whole point of bringing an opponent to the ground is to get an advantage over them. Conversely, being on the ground should also grant a benefit to making Trip actions (I think the current bigger is better trip rules are wrong -- anyone who owns a cat can attest to the effortlessly devastating trip attempts tiny creatures make against medium ones but which the RAW don't permit)
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Morgenstern
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« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2012, 04:28:22 PM »

"Hollywood-trained Guards".  Guards can't use quick draw.  They may only make threats from 5ft away or less.  If they are more than 5 feet away, they will willingly try to close to melee range, even if they have a rifle or pistol, in order to issue commands.

*snicker* SO true.

Skyfall was odd in many, many ways, but yeah, there was a particularly large amount of dumb goon going on.
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TheTSKoala
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« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2012, 01:37:57 PM »

"Hollywood-trained Guards".  Guards can't use quick draw.  They may only make threats from 5ft away or less.  If they are more than 5 feet away, they will willingly try to close to melee range, even if they have a rifle or pistol, in order to issue commands.

*snicker* SO true.

Skyfall was odd in many, many ways, but yeah, there was a particularly large amount of dumb goon going on.

That and Q.  His idea of InfoSec just.. gah! *walks off and rants*
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gaghiel42
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« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2013, 12:14:53 PM »

anything that would let you use scenery as a weapon, or perhaps for those who don't want to punch/kick/bite a method of doing damage by falling/jumping/bodyslamming on someone or something.

for instance, I tackle a guy to the ground from a running start.  That intial hit usually is enough to take the wind out of them if I hit them right (since Im pretty big) but then, when they are on the ground, just pushing myself up and throwing myself back on them again while still in the grapple acts as kinda an aoe punch to them.  And of course, doing so while carrying them in my arms like say pushing them through a door to then land on the floor on top of them adds a whole extra layer of pain cause my weight lands on them from higher up, but also they just landed on a door (and hopefully a painful doorknob too)
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TheTSKoala
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« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2013, 11:19:04 PM »

anything that would let you use scenery as a weapon, or perhaps for those who don't want to punch/kick/bite a method of doing damage by falling/jumping/bodyslamming on someone or something.

for instance, I tackle a guy to the ground from a running start.  That intial hit usually is enough to take the wind out of them if I hit them right (since Im pretty big) but then, when they are on the ground, just pushing myself up and throwing myself back on them again while still in the grapple acts as kinda an aoe punch to them.  And of course, doing so while carrying them in my arms like say pushing them through a door to then land on the floor on top of them adds a whole extra layer of pain cause my weight lands on them from higher up, but also they just landed on a door (and hopefully a painful doorknob too)

A secondary thought.. and one didn't think of until I read gaghiel's.  Counter grappling.  In Gaghiel's example.  He head long charges me.  I would have to take the hit to start the grapple, yes, but.. what about once that starts?  His head is low.. his eyes are down.. I play it right.. I'm cutting off his air supply while he tries to figure out why I'm still standing.  ..or.. of course.. just a well placed & timed knee to the temple.
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Morgenstern
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« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2013, 01:31:56 AM »

A lot of what's being looked at here is present in what I was shooting for with this:

http://www.crafty-games.com/forum/index.php?topic=6854.0

Specifically that lot of "grappling" is very fast (started and finished in a single round), and more about positioning your opponet somewhere near by and prefferably sprawled. Pinning is something you really only try if you have equal or greater numbers than your opposition, because it takes a lot of attention to maintain. A few truely expert martial artists can pin 2-4 characters simultaneously, but they lose any pretense of mobility (after 2 they are ussualy sitting/standing on somebody's awkwardly cranked limb...).

A friend of mine did get assaulted one time by three attackers in a public place and put a shriekingly painful pin on one of them so hard and fast the other two were intimidated long enough for onlookers to notify the police, but he knew that it could have gone south very fast (south being attacker #1 getting maimed and then him having to try and cope with the other two who now knew that this was going to be a serious fight).

Basic counter grappling might be as simple as waiting your turn and taking a grapple action now that thy are obviously adjacent to you. Expert counter-grappling is probably best dealt with as a reaction: either a full defense trick or possbly an ability that lets you make some sort of save to initiate a grab. The cost of a free standing trick is well understood, so the question is how often would you want people being able to start a grapple as a save? Feat cost? Proficiency cost? A quick skim though the Spycraft 1st ed unarmed combat feats will show a couple ways of going about this mechanically, allthought tricks give some elegant new ways of implementing them.
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gaghiel42
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« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2013, 03:53:51 AM »

the only time real grappling lasts a long time is if you run into a scenario where you are forced to make the other person submit, and you don't really want to hurt them permanently.

I used to wrestle and play football, so I've  had my share of grappling bouts.  Basically you want to hit someone hard enough so that they have no time to react.  If given the chance, and they are ready for it, there are reactions they can use to counter you.   So honestly its a question of surprise/initiative vs preparation.  If I had 2 seconds to get ready for someone to attack me, and they were coming at me with the intention of incapacitating me, odds are I would have at least one or two counters for them.  I've had matches last for 15 solid minutes in the past, but again, this was when I wasn't trying to actively harm the other person, but put them into a position where they would submit.

Honestly, I think grapple could be a fun dramatic conflict that effectively goes on during a combat round between two characters while the rest of the fight is going on.

The amount of damage scenery and a well placed slam into it can actually do to a person.  That scene in Princess Bride with Andre vs Dread Pirate Roberts was very inaccurate to how it would go down in real life.  Just playing, I was able to split a friends shoulder open on a drywall corner with little to no damage to the wall itself (and I wasn't even trying to hurt him).
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