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Author Topic: Walk me through Grapple:Screaming Club  (Read 6293 times)
cjs65
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« Reply #150 on: August 03, 2012, 11:10:15 AM »

If Wrestling/grappling became powered by Unarmed attack, I could easily see an equivalent of the Eagle Eye trick allowing you to substitute your Athletics (Str) bonus for your Unarmed Attack bonus x number of times per combat.

I like that. You get a basic ability with grappling equivalent to your other attacks, but if you make a commitment to learning a technique (wrestling, Judo or whatever) then you get better. Without giving it a great deal of thought, it makes a whole heap of sense to me.  Cool
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Sletchman
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« Reply #151 on: August 03, 2012, 05:23:35 PM »

Which version of the grappling rules were you using: "one benefit per person per round", or "one benefit per opposed check won"? Because that's the difference in getting to screaming club at the top of round 3 with 4 checks, or the top of round 2 with just 2.

Winner of the check gets an advantage, no matter whose turn it is.  That's the only way I thought the rules could have been interpreted, the other way just never occurred to anyone in my group.  Also, we imported Critical Success = 2 Advantages from 2.0.

So what about that makes it boring to use grapple?

Doing something cool every 2nd round (at best) doesn't strike you as boring when everyone else is doing something cool every round (or twice or more a round)?  That doesn't fix it, it just makes it less awful then "do something cool ever 3rd round".
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LordKruelos
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« Reply #152 on: August 03, 2012, 06:27:33 PM »

Which version of the grappling rules were you using: "one benefit per person per round", or "one benefit per opposed check won"? Because that's the difference in getting to screaming club at the top of round 3 with 4 checks, or the top of round 2 with just 2.

Winner of the check gets an advantage, no matter whose turn it is.  That's the only way I thought the rules could have been interpreted, the other way just never occurred to anyone in my group.  Also, we imported Critical Success = 2 Advantages from 2.0.

So what about that makes it boring to use grapple?

Doing something cool every 2nd round (at best) doesn't strike you as boring when everyone else is doing something cool every round (or twice or more a round)?  That doesn't fix it, it just makes it less awful then "do something cool ever 3rd round".

But that only applies when facing multiple opponents that you can drop easily. 1 on 1, it's a fantastically useful thing.
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Goodlun
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« Reply #153 on: August 03, 2012, 06:47:52 PM »

"I am a shark, the ground is my ocean and most people can't even swim."
-Rickson Gracie

I like this quote and I think its very apt for any sort of "mini game" inside of a game.  A charter should feel that their is a good reason to pull someone else into their element outside of their comfort zone.  This is the way it  currently works.

Maybe the problem is their is next to no way to prevent being pulled into the minigame.  As opposed to the minigame itself.
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Sletchman
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« Reply #154 on: August 03, 2012, 07:50:00 PM »

Doing something cool every 2nd round (at best) doesn't strike you as boring when everyone else is doing something cool every round (or twice or more a round)?  That doesn't fix it, it just makes it less awful then "do something cool ever 3rd round".

But that only applies when facing multiple opponents that you can drop easily. 1 on 1, it's a fantastically useful thing.

No, it applies all the time.  1 vs 1 doesn't give you extra grapple actions - it's still going to take you until the 2nd round, at best, to do something cool (and since it's 1 vs 1 Screaming Club isn't an option).  During that time your group still have access to all their cool bag of tricks - your role gets relegated to "hold him still while we're awesome".  Which isn't cinematic, isn't exciting, and isn't fun.  At least in multiple opponent situations you can screaming club one into the other - which is cool and certainly beats "I spend the next [HOWEVER LONG HE TAKES TO DIE] holding him still".

I'm not talking useful, or power - I'm talking cool and exciting.  When I play, I want to be as cool as the guy who impales a guy on his spear, and then rips the spear out, sweaping it low so they can drop and then stab another guy - that's cool.  I'm all about style for my characters, even if it makes them a little weaker - fun and narrative style trumps all.  I'm certain there's a way to have a Grapple system that is both exciting and useful.

Additionally, many GMs also hate the idea of their final big bad evil guy being taken out of the fight in 1 round (there's been pretty extensive discussion about it since FCs release), so in a 1 on 1 fight against a special character, you'll find many (if not all) have either high Athletics as a signature skill, or Freedom of Movement.  Which also reduces it's effectiveness in 1 on 1.
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Crafty_Pat
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« Reply #155 on: August 04, 2012, 10:02:15 PM »

1. Speaking of which, the baseline assumption of competency for a cinematic game could well stand to be that a lack of proficiencies shouldn't make you suck, but that rather having proficiencies should make you better.

We disagree - about proficiencies being yet another bonus, not that proficiencies present their own set of problems. They do, and without elaborating I'll simply say that this is a long solved problem at our end.
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« Reply #156 on: August 04, 2012, 10:21:27 PM »

GCs are players, too. Watching fights become "Get Giant to wrestle monster to ground. Get party to surround monster and stab it to death over 10 rounds" is boring Smiley If Grapples used BAB, there'd be no "Flawless XX" ability to amplify the problem of skilled vs. unskilled.

Then it's the GC's job to do something about it.

...and that job shouldn't be any harder than what's expected from the players. In fact, it should be easier, since there's six players and only one GM.
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« Reply #157 on: August 04, 2012, 10:37:13 PM »

Just to stick in a random idea why not make the defending against the grapple be a half action and give the defender so other options. 

Hm. I wouldn't go there precisely, but it gives me another idea.

::mad scribbling::
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Patrick Kapera
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« Reply #158 on: August 05, 2012, 12:46:29 AM »

As it happens, I'm playing Star Wars Saga right now, and because my GM gave me a set of SpecForce Infiltrators to control I just spotted the Pin feat in this game.

Pin. Feat.

As in, you can't pin without it. Honestly. Go read the rules. It's strikingly similar to what's been suggested by some folks in this thread.

I'm not saying that's how I want to do it - for what it's worth, it's not even close to what I pitched to Alex - but it's interesting nonetheless.
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #159 on: August 05, 2012, 03:24:24 AM »

1. Speaking of which, the baseline assumption of competency for a cinematic game could well stand to be that a lack of proficiencies shouldn't make you suck, but that rather having proficiencies should make you better.

We disagree - about proficiencies being yet another bonus, not that proficiencies present their own set of problems. They do, and without elaborating I'll simply say that this is a long solved problem at our end.

I didn't say they should be a bonus (because yeah, they are effectively a +4 bonus atm). Lowering a broad baseline error range -- say 1-5 -- to that of the weapon for proficient attacks, or the AD cost to activate non proficient attacks being 1 less, would work just fine as analternative

As it happens, I'm playing Star Wars Saga right now, and because my GM gave me a set of SpecForce Infiltrators to control I just spotted the Pin feat in this game.

Pin. Feat.

Yeah, that's one of the few things I viciously hated about Saga
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Sletchman
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« Reply #160 on: August 05, 2012, 04:45:18 AM »

As it happens, I'm playing Star Wars Saga right now, and because my GM gave me a set of SpecForce Infiltrators to control I just spotted the Pin feat in this game.

Pin. Feat.

As in, you can't pin without it. Honestly. Go read the rules. It's strikingly similar to what's been suggested by some folks in this thread.

I have no problem with that.  Given how butch "Pin" is in d20 games, it seems fairly feat worthy when compared to other benefits typically provided by feats.  It's not my preference, and I'm glad that it's not the idea you pitched to Alex, but I wouldn't have any problem and totally get the reason why that's the way it's handled in Saga.
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« Reply #161 on: August 05, 2012, 05:44:54 PM »

As it happens, I'm playing Star Wars Saga right now, and because my GM gave me a set of SpecForce Infiltrators to control I just spotted the Pin feat in this game.

Pin. Feat.

As in, you can't pin without it.

SAGA required a feat to tie your shoelaces. Seriously. All of the interesting combat options (Disarm, Trip, etc) required a feat. Worst feature of the game.

I am strongly in favor of games where the system encourages descriptive combat. The worst thing to me is:
I move 3 squares. I attack. Hit. 15 damage.

Before I go through 5-10 rounds of ticking down the hit point clock, I'd rather spend an action die to skip the combat, because that's more exciting.
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #162 on: August 05, 2012, 07:20:39 PM »

Doing something cool every 2nd round (at best) doesn't strike you as boring when everyone else is doing something cool every round (or twice or more a round)?  That doesn't fix it, it just makes it less awful then "do something cool ever 3rd round".

See, I don't look at it that way because I see this first and foremost as a clear demonstration why grappling isn't the magic go-to option some folks are making it out to be. It's a situational tactic, not an ongoing strategy. And if it's not going to lead to something you feel is awesome, there's no onus to perform it.

Let's assume you're grappling the enemy spellcaster, preventing them from targeting the rest of your party. It might not be as glamourous as cleaving through an army of mooks, but it's just as important. And if they've got elemental shield up (a character level 9 option), you're in a potentially epic race against time to grind them down before the spell does the same to you at a guaranteed 5-10 pts of damage a round for a minimum of 9 rounds (conversely, a PC mage could under go the same struggle from the other side)

Also, screaming club isn't a use-it-and-lose-it option: you can keep making attacks with your prisoner until they break and you need another one. Yes you're basically stuck with a single attack per round and denied your Drx and Dodge bonuses while using the aforementioned club, RAW, but I can't see any reason why you can't use any of your cool bag of tricks with it (specifically the Cleave chain as RAW the attack the benefit grants you specifically ISN'T a final/free attack.
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Sletchman
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« Reply #163 on: August 05, 2012, 07:38:49 PM »

Doing something cool every 2nd round (at best) doesn't strike you as boring when everyone else is doing something cool every round (or twice or more a round)?  That doesn't fix it, it just makes it less awful then "do something cool ever 3rd round".

See, I don't look at it that way because I see this first and foremost as a clear demonstration why grappling isn't the magic go-to option some folks are making it out to be. It's a situational tactic, not an ongoing strategy. And if it's not going to lead to something you feel is awesome, there's no onus to perform it.

Yes, and I'm clearly not one of those folks.  I've never said it was too good, or a magic go to combat solution.  What it is is boring.  If it was slightly weaker (not total shutdown) and more exciting, it would be better.  As it is, at best, you force your GM into some stupid skill check pissing contest because he doesn't want his setpiece villain to be down for the count in the first round.  When the game becomes GM vs Player no one wins.  Ever.

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Also, screaming club isn't a use-it-and-lose-it option: you can keep making attacks with your prisoner until they break and you need another one. Yes you're basically stuck with a single attack per round and denied your Drx and Dodge bonuses while using the aforementioned club, RAW, but I can't see any reason why you can't use any of your cool bag of tricks with it (specifically the Cleave chain as RAW the attack the benefit grants you specifically ISN'T a final/free attack.

Most GMs run the enemies based on their Intelligence score.  So if you're hitting an intelligent enemy with his friend, he for damn sure is going to back away from you.  Yes, you can (try to) follow him, but you're far slower (single move action) and can't move then strike.  So often it very much is a use it and lose it option.  Unless the enemies are Feral, Berserk, or stupid - all of which are far from a guaranteed thing.
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Goodlun
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« Reply #164 on: August 06, 2012, 03:46:45 AM »

As it is, at best, you force your GM into some stupid skill check pissing contest because he doesn't want his setpiece villain to be down for the count in the first round. 

See here is the problem this shouldn't be happening this is what Mooks are for, to start stabbing you when you have the big bad held down.  This becomes very dangerous real quick for a grappling PC as they are subject to sneak attack damage and other issues with losing ones dex bonus.
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