Back to Crafty Games Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 01, 2014, 09:25:07 PM
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Welcome to the Crafty Games Forums!

Note to New Members: To combat spam, we have instituted new rules: you must post 5 replies to existing threads before you can create new threads.

+  Crafty Games Forum
|-+  Products
| |-+  Fantasy Craft
| | |-+  Walk me through Grapple:Screaming Club
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11 ... 13 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Walk me through Grapple:Screaming Club  (Read 5885 times)
MilitiaJim
Control
******
Posts: 4318



View Profile WWW
« Reply #120 on: August 02, 2012, 07:10:59 AM »

FWIW, the training for your body to swim and climb and such is good for wrestling.  When I wrestled in high school a big chunk of each practice was running up and down the stairs.  (The building has 10 stories, it was a whole bunch of stairs.)
Logged

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)
cjs65
Jr. Agent
**
Posts: 69


View Profile
« Reply #121 on: August 02, 2012, 08:01:50 AM »

FWIW, the training for your body to swim and climb and such is good for wrestling.  When I wrestled in high school a big chunk of each practice was running up and down the stairs.  (The building has 10 stories, it was a whole bunch of stairs.)

Of course, that makes perfect sense. But in game terms wouldn't that be increasing Strength (ie. one aspect of general fitness) which is useful in all three disciplines? Rather than learning skills & techniques for a specific purpose. For instance, learning backstroke isn't going to help you wrestle somebody to the floor. Knowing Judo doesn't help with abseiling. Other than the generally increased fitness level that accompanies continued pursuit of these activities.

I do understand the advantages of having a compact list of skills, and therefore a general 'Athletics' skill, but why is grappling (I believe) the only physical (non-magical) attack technique that doesn't work off of attack bonus? Seems inconsistent. Also, to quote an earlier example, it's good to have a courtier who can learn wrestling, yes, but why can't he learn boxing in the same way?
Logged
SilvercatMoonpaw
Control
******
Posts: 1205



View Profile
« Reply #122 on: August 02, 2012, 08:34:35 AM »

I kind of do like the idea of using unarmed attack.

Is there any reason it couldn't use the highest of the two?  Other than questioning the logic of linking climbing/swimming to wrestling (because that's already been established).
Logged
MilitiaJim
Control
******
Posts: 4318



View Profile WWW
« Reply #123 on: August 02, 2012, 08:51:55 AM »

Of course, that makes perfect sense. But in game terms wouldn't that be increasing Strength (ie. one aspect of general fitness) which is useful in all three disciplines? Rather than learning skills & techniques for a specific purpose. For instance, learning backstroke isn't going to help you wrestle somebody to the floor. Knowing Judo doesn't help with abseiling. Other than the generally increased fitness level that accompanies continued pursuit of these activities.
There is a measure of athleticism that goes with both judo and rappelling, and if someone is notably good at Judo, they're unlikely to injure themselves abseiling.

There is a measure of handwaving that goes into all skills, and I would just as soon not see Athletics become another focus skill.

Basing Grappling on the Unarmed attack bonus would tilt the fighting field even more towards the combat characters and eliminate a relatively easier way to boost a social characters combat effectiveness.
Logged

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)
cjs65
Jr. Agent
**
Posts: 69


View Profile
« Reply #124 on: August 02, 2012, 09:18:00 AM »

An interesting question from a re-read of the grappling rules:

As Grapple is listed as an 'Unarmed/1-Handed Melee Attack Action', I guess that means that Unarmed (or 1-Handed? Is this right?) proficiency is applied to the Athletics roll? So not being trained in Unarmed gives a -4 penalty and having a forte gives a +1? I hope this is the case, as it would mitigate some of my concerns over using Athletics for grappling...
Logged
LordKruelos
Handler
*****
Posts: 998



View Profile
« Reply #125 on: August 02, 2012, 09:38:37 AM »

An interesting question from a re-read of the grappling rules:

As Grapple is listed as an 'Unarmed/1-Handed Melee Attack Action', I guess that means that Unarmed (or 1-Handed? Is this right?) proficiency is applied to the Athletics roll? So not being trained in Unarmed gives a -4 penalty and having a forte gives a +1? I hope this is the case, as it would mitigate some of my concerns over using Athletics for grappling...

Yes, Unarmed proficiency would count, so by the same logic, the forte would also count.  Early in the thread I asked if the Screaming Club benefit was covered by the Blunt proficiency, but frankly I'd probably allow either Blunt or Unarmed to count for purposes of being proficient in the attack.
Logged
Sletchman
Control
******
Posts: 4108


Gentleman Scholar.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #126 on: August 02, 2012, 02:09:45 PM »

It's also worth noting that climbing dramatically increases raw grip strength - the one person you don't want to wrestle with is someone with a brutally strong grip.  They can totally shut you down.  Swimming is the same - the ability to put out consistent levels of force and control your breathing carries over extremely well (to say nothing of the increased VO2 max).  The only thing that transfers to Wrestling better is Olympic Lifting - and there was an Athletics (Power Lifting) check in SC2.0.

Also, natural athleticism carries over into wrestling better then almost anything else - you take a gifted athlete and after a class or two they will do pretty well in a match.  General hand eye coordination (the closest BAB approximation I can think of - being able to put your attacks on target) doesn't carry over anywhere near as much (though it carries over spectacularly to boxing, if the person also has good reflexes).

It's actually fairly realistic for an abstraction.  I'd have put Jump in Athletics, but I'm not complaining about it's placing in Acrobatics by any means.
Logged
Crafty_Alex
Crafty Staff
Control
*****
Posts: 3244


Damned if I do, damned if I don't.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #127 on: August 02, 2012, 03:22:39 PM »

Brief thoughts - don't let me interrupt the conversation (mainly cause I like what's happening here).

Of course, that makes perfect sense. But in game terms wouldn't that be increasing Strength (ie. one aspect of general fitness) which is useful in all three disciplines? Rather than learning skills & techniques for a specific purpose. For instance, learning backstroke isn't going to help you wrestle somebody to the floor. Knowing Judo doesn't help with abseiling. Other than the generally increased fitness level that accompanies continued pursuit of these activities.
There is a measure of athleticism that goes with both judo and rappelling, and if someone is notably good at Judo, they're unlikely to injure themselves abseiling.

See, that says to me that Judo has nothing to do with abseiling necessarily- but rather that the guy good with Judo and the guy good with rapelling both share some root characteristic (such as being strong). Being good at one doesn't make you good at the other, but being strong is a trait common to people who are good at either one of those activities.

Quote
There is a measure of handwaving that goes into all skills, and I would just as soon not see Athletics become another focus skill.


Absolutely.

Quote
Basing Grappling on the Unarmed attack bonus would tilt the fighting field even more towards the combat characters and eliminate a relatively easier way to boost a social characters combat effectiveness.

See, that's not a situation I see too often. Barring Origin skills, there are very few characters who have Athletics and who are not good at fighting. Certainly, there are almost *no* social characters that get Athletics as part of the core skill package (Assassins, Courtiers, Emissaries, etc.). The logical correlation between "swinging a sword well" and "being physically fit" is just too strong in many cases.

Where I have some concerns with an Athletics-based wrestling system at this moment is twofold:

1) Characters who don't have Athletics are f'ed in against an even moderately Athletic character. Totally.
2) Characters who don't have Athletics and whose players know they'd be f'ed in grapples effectively have to burn an Origin skill in order to survive that deadly corner case.

Something like BAB which increases over level in our system means the guy who "fails to play the game right" has a chance when he's grappled  the first time - he gets a slow climb up the BAB ladder as a social character, while the guy with Athletics can't quickly outdistance his natural BAB progression using skill ranks.

I think it all comes down to how deadly you think Grapples should be. Basing my opinion totally off cinematic expectations, I think "not really" - interesting, without a doubt; accessible, yes; inconvenient, yes; ending with one guy in cuffs, absolutely. But character-ending? No.
Logged

Sletchman
Control
******
Posts: 4108


Gentleman Scholar.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #128 on: August 02, 2012, 05:14:47 PM »

So... like Wrestling as a weapon proficiency then?

It could make some spells a little weird - if a Telekinesis effect (Mage Hand: Kingsize?) grapples the opponent with an Athletics check equal to your Spellcasting result is pretty balanced.  Still a skill vs skill.  If grappling becomes BAB based then the Spellcasting result will always be quite a bit higher.  Just a thought.

I'm not saying I'm against the idea of using BAB (or even for it).  I can think of equal numbers of positives and negatives for both approaches.  Using BAB is certainly more forgiving for the new players.
Logged
LordKruelos
Handler
*****
Posts: 998



View Profile
« Reply #129 on: August 02, 2012, 05:27:03 PM »

What if a character could use either, IE use highest of Athletics or Unarmed attack bonus?

Since Athletics is more skill oriented and advances faster, the expect is going to go this way, it's a faster advancement, but with BAB as a fallback stat, it potentially addresses both of Alex's concerns without dismantling the skill primacy.

At that point, the biggest change I'd suspect is fewer people take Athletics as an origin skill just to protect vs grapple.
Logged
ahzad
Handler
*****
Posts: 579



View Profile
« Reply #130 on: August 02, 2012, 06:13:14 PM »

This reminds me of a meme I've seen that fits perfectly I wish I could post the image directly but I get an uploader full message. It's a little NSFW b/c of language.

http://weknowmemes.com/2012/06/ill-beat-a-motherfucker-with-another-motherfucker/

Alzad, head back to the original post, and click on the spoiler button.

Yep, this conversation has gone full circle.  Evil

i thought that seemed awfully familiar for some reason.
[makes more popcorn]
Logged

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - A. Einstein
Mister Andersen
Control
******
Posts: 10730


I'm leaving for a destination I still don't know


View Profile
« Reply #131 on: August 02, 2012, 06:42:46 PM »

If I want to play a grappler, I'm going to take Explorer 1.

While I like the idea of a level of general competency -- and as such, would hate to see grappling treated as a proficiency which would only make it harder to access under the current construction of the rules1 -- people have made the conscious decision to make and play characters who aren't physical powerhouses in order to be good at something else, so they have  zero right to complain when they come up against other characters capable of exploiting those deficiencies. Nerds tend to get seriously pwned by jocks. If you want to fight back, you need to make the choice -- yay origin skills -- to undertake the specific training to do so.

It's not the fault of the rules that this kryptonite exists, it's the fault of the GC who chooses to use it to fatally gimp you. Which most generally won't.


---
1. Speaking of which, the baseline assumption of competency for a cinematic game could well stand to be that a lack of proficiencies shouldn't make you suck, but that rather having proficiencies should make you better. Non proficiency penalties should be something turned on by campaign quality for people who want a more challenging game.
Logged

Gentry
Powered By Publisher
Control
******
Posts: 2822


It's a Trap!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #132 on: August 02, 2012, 06:45:21 PM »

So... like Wrestling as a weapon proficiency then?

I can maybe get behind that, with something like Pin (as a total shutdown) available as a Wrestling Attack Trick outside the usual list of grapple benefits. And I like it available as a trick rather than a feat benefit--the feat just makes the trick work better.

Logged

I'm a secret VAO Control (Shh!)

Check out Wyrmstone for FC Open Source campaigning

Have you joined Knife Rights yet?

Live and game in Flyover Country? Join Tornado Alley Game Guil
Mister Andersen
Control
******
Posts: 10730


I'm leaving for a destination I still don't know


View Profile
« Reply #133 on: August 02, 2012, 06:47:36 PM »

Also, because it's funny and totally related to the subject at hand (spoilers for anyone yet the see The Avengers): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7wug7QG8Oc
Logged

MilitiaJim
Control
******
Posts: 4318



View Profile WWW
« Reply #134 on: August 02, 2012, 07:12:34 PM »

Also, because it's funny and totally related to the subject at hand (spoilers for anyone yet the see The Avengers): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7wug7QG8Oc
Didn't someone mention scenery damage?  (And yes Loki, you will be bullied.)
Logged

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11 ... 13 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!