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Author Topic: Walk me through Grapple:Screaming Club  (Read 5510 times)
Mister Andersen
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« Reply #90 on: August 01, 2012, 04:26:25 AM »

There is very little difference between "held down" and "totally fucked" though. If you're being held down you can bet you're more than a little fucked.

Sure I get that you want to be able to grab people off the street, slap a bag on their head and zip ties on their wrists and take them somewhere safer. However, you also don't want to make that process too easy - if you do, it becomes "grab them off the street, and put a bullet in their head".

I must confess I don't know at the moment how to solve that problem without extravagant use of subdual damage dealing weapons.

At this point, it's easier to put a bullet in someone's head than it is to bag and tag.
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Viperion
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« Reply #91 on: August 01, 2012, 04:37:56 AM »

That's because it is easier to put a bullet in someone's head than grab them...
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Bill Whitmore
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« Reply #92 on: August 01, 2012, 04:44:22 AM »

I've only really been involved in one combat where grappling got a proper showcasing, and that was in the LotR PbP in these forums. Long story short, we were in a large battle with a Hulk McSavage, he grappled my PC and used my hopeless resistance to quickly establish a pin and begin Coup-de-Grace'ing me, and I ended up eating three or four Coup-de-Graces before the rest of the party dogpiled him until he dropped me.

From that experience I've learned that grappling's no fun when you're on the receiving end, it is awesome in one-on-one situations but somewhat hazardous when what you're grappling's got mates that can object to you roughing up their friend, and the grappling Coup-de-Grace isn't all that dangerous (granted the last one may be due to my PC being the tankiest tank I could make, with ridiculous wounds/fortitude save and decent DR).

I was in that game too, and that same encounter made me realize how unfun it is to get grappled.  It was one of the reasons I decided to try a martial artist / grappler in the Fallout game and I realized that even being the one initiating the grapple isn't really any more fun.

They probably complain about every other negative condition they get hit with that reduces their options.

Being grappled is only slightly better than being unconscious or dead.  While grappled leaves you with only 1 possible action vs unconscious/dead leaving you with 0, the latter two are much harder conditions to inflict on special characters.

So nope, no problems with other conditions.  I've been tripped, bull rushed, blinded, flanked, fixated, fatigued: name the condition and I have likely suffered from it.  None of the other conditions say "game over, thanks for playing" like being held, except again unconscious and dead.
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ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER!   Ramen.
SilvercatMoonpaw
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« Reply #93 on: August 01, 2012, 06:45:02 AM »

Sometimes you get overpowered; suck it up and move on.
No: balance should always be strived for.  Otherwise rules are less than useless.

And that was just dismissive and rude.

_____________________________________________________________________________

So what's wrong with the idea of leaving the system as-is but making the non-held/pinned moves available separately?
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #94 on: August 01, 2012, 11:54:02 AM »

Sometimes you get overpowered; suck it up and move on.
No: balance should always be strived for.  Otherwise rules are less than useless.

And that was just dismissive and rude.

No it was a simple statement of fact. All I'm seeing here is complaining about how -- as usual -- a small number of people want to nerf stuff so they won't have to face the occasional possibility of inconvenience.

Special characters are not and should never be immune out of the box to getting taken down by an opponent capable of it; you might as well argue that specials shouldn't use the wounds/vitality system because a lucky shot might kill them.

Anything that tries to change or remove that does a far greater disservice to players and the game itself than the occasional person who gets taken down earlier than they would like or expect.

So yes, suck up the disappointment, because unless your GC is a douche or as a GC you don't pay attention to how your players work, it's not going to be anything approaching even a semi regular experience. It's no different to any other case where the dice gods frown down on you.

Quote
So what's wrong with the idea of leaving the system as-is but making the non-held/pinned moves available separately?

Then what's the point of it?
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SilvercatMoonpaw
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« Reply #95 on: August 01, 2012, 12:18:13 PM »

So yes, suck up the disappointment...

Your arguments around what special characters should not be immune to is not the problem.  Your attitude is.  There are better ways to phrase this.

Then what's the point of it?

That you still have something that inflicts held/pinned.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 12:21:14 PM by SilvercatMoonpaw » Logged
Viperion
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« Reply #96 on: August 01, 2012, 12:26:55 PM »

All I'm seeing here is complaining about how -- as usual -- a small number of people want to nerf stuff so they won't have to face the occasional possibility of inconvenience.
Mate, I don't know which thread you're reading but it's not the same one I am. No one is talking about nerfing anything, and those that want to make sure grappling doesn't turn into "easy mode" are the majority.

Basically fella, to borrow a phrase, suck it up and realise you are the vocal minority on this one.
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SilvercatMoonpaw
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« Reply #97 on: August 01, 2012, 12:28:56 PM »

Basically fella, to borrow a phrase, suck it up and realise you are the vocal minority on this one.

Please don't anyone else start.
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Crafty_Alex
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« Reply #98 on: August 01, 2012, 01:35:07 PM »

Threadwatch activated.

Modvoice on.

Keep it civil people.
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #99 on: August 01, 2012, 02:34:55 PM »

All I'm seeing here is complaining about how -- as usual -- a small number of people want to nerf stuff so they won't have to face the occasional possibility of inconvenience.
Mate, I don't know which thread you're reading but it's not the same one I am. No one is talking about nerfing anything, and those that want to make sure grappling doesn't turn into "easy mode" are the majority.

Except that (a) I've already agreed that a system that distinguishes between mundanes and specials is the logical way forward, and (b) it's not easy mode at all. It's a tactical choice -- an exciting, cinemeatic and potentially quite risky choice -- that even as used strictly as intended leaves the actor more vulnerble and with less options as to what they can do than if they were to just straight up attack the person they're trying to stymie.

I think you've managed to demonstrate that you have been reading a different thread because some people in this one have indeed been talking about completely gutting the grapple rules and shifting the bits that actually let you do stuff that the average secret agent or adventure can do out of the box into feats, which is a fundamental mistake because the overwhelming evidence is that most people get into pen'n'paper RPGs because they want to be able to do all the cool dangerous heroic stuff from the other media they consume. Out of the box.

There is nothing remotely wrong or bad in your character getting into a position where they need rescuing from a superior enemy's grasp, or being threatened with harm by that enemy to force the rest of the party to stand down.
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SilvercatMoonpaw
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« Reply #100 on: August 01, 2012, 02:46:21 PM »

I should note in my case I don't want to shift stuff like Screaming Club so it exists exclusively in feats/tricks, I just think it would solve some of the desires to be able to do that stuff without going through the longness of a grapple.  I'm suggesting they be made tricks in addition to being part of the grapple rules.  Players then select them if they want easy ways to do those moves, but at base competence they are still available through using the grapple rules.


As to the issue of special vs. standard: how would having grapple be a standard character easy takedown work in comparison to the damage save system?
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Sletchman
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« Reply #101 on: August 01, 2012, 02:49:35 PM »

Why don't we try to establish a baseline that we can all agree on?  Rather then arguing about half a dozen separate things at once?  No mechanics here, just things we all agree are important and necessary.

1)  There needs to be some method of quickly taking down and capturing Standard Characters.  It's just too prevalent in source inspiration.

2) This method need not be automatically available to all - it might require something like a "Police Training" feat (or chain).

3) To avoid anti-climatic scenes, Special Characters should be more difficult - requiring specific specialised training or abilities.  Including PCs.  New NPC qualities could also make them difficult / impractical to grapple - again, to avoid a totally anti-climatic finale to your mission.  Please note that I'm not saying "Impossible" - just "more difficult"

For the above, compare various Melee Supremacy feats (and their auto save fail tricks), as well as the Misdirection chain (for comparison to abilities that can target special characters).

4) Certain grapple options can stand to be divorced from the subsystem - Screaming Club can easily be an "inflict and done" action.  Personally, I'd feat-gate it as part of a "Monstrous Brawler" chain (but with a better name) - but it could very easily be a standard combat action (just like Trip or Bullrush).  Same can be said for manipulating an opponent's gear - it can be a standard combat action (via Prestidigitation, perhaps).

5) Building on the above - Grapple, as a subsystem, should only have rules for grabbing hold of your enemy, and keeping them in your square.  I'm specifically not saying it'll be a subsystem for just shutting down the enemy entirely - at this stage I am referring specifically (and only) to the ability to negate their movement by grabbing them.

We can put the Throw ability in with Screaming Club, or other "Inflict and done" abilities, and just keep the Grapple Subsystem as the practice of grappling - that way players can do things like manipulate their enemy's gear, or throw them, or other things without either mitigating the enemies actions, or it being impossible due to the enemy's size / strength / signature skill.


Thoughts?  Are there some points that you find agreeable, but not others?  I think if we can find some common ground that everyone can say "Yes, that is fair and does what I want it to" about then we can move forward more easily then if we try to put 12 ideas together at the same time.  Foundation work, that's all.
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LordKruelos
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« Reply #102 on: August 01, 2012, 03:25:08 PM »




So in relation to the ruleset as written -- I think I'm going to try this:

New Campaign Quality:
Cartoon Brawling (1 Action Die)
Anyone can be a brawler, but some get style points. When a character scores a threat with an opposed Grapple check, he may spend 1 or more action dice, applying an additional Grapple benefit with each die spent to activate the critical success.


I think that tweak will mean the difference between grappling being used and enjoyed and it being ignored by my players.
Does it grant an extra benefit to good roleplayers and action die machines? Yes, probably.
I think this will probably make a difference because it'll speed the grapple up and reward heavy AD use.
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Viperion
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« Reply #103 on: August 01, 2012, 03:50:12 PM »

Threadwatch activated.

Modvoice on.

Keep it civil people.

My apologies. In my defence I was merely using the same tone that had been used previously in the thread without mod comment. I will attempt not to do so again.

Sletchman: Some interesting thoughts there. I'll reply later
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Crafty_Alex
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« Reply #104 on: August 01, 2012, 04:18:36 PM »

Threadwatch activated.

Modvoice on.

Keep it civil people.

My apologies. In my defence I was merely using the same tone that had been used previously in the thread without mod comment. I will attempt not to do so again.

Vip - I wasn't picking you out; I was only addressing the escalation of emotions. Usually these things burn themselves out, so Pat and I let them follow their natural course. I cracked out Modvoice because people on both sides (all sides?) of this discussion are getting a bit too harsh with each other. We're all friends here. Let's keep that in mind.
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