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Author Topic: Walk me through Grapple:Screaming Club  (Read 5752 times)
Crafty_Pat
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« Reply #60 on: July 31, 2012, 07:03:27 PM »

Absolutely not. It would become the go-to tactic for most combatants, and likewise if you were playing and were consistently taken out in 1 round, that would severely hamper the flow of the game.

It bypasses the entire Vitality/Hit Point model, and makes combat way too binary and focussed on the Initiative roll.

See, this has always been our thinking as well. It's why we look for ways to curb the abuse.
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« Reply #61 on: July 31, 2012, 07:08:34 PM »

For the record, I think the power level of grappling as it is now is fine (lots of time and feat investment, but a pretty big payoff) but if it can be made easier and/or more consistent, even at the expense of some power, I think that would be a Very Good Thing(tm).

Like SilverCatMoonpaw, I'm quite keen to see a system where you inflict conditions on a foe (Held/Entangled, Sprawled, Dazed, Push, et al) and it's simply skinned as a Grapple when really it's just a hit roll or variation thereof.
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #62 on: July 31, 2012, 07:17:52 PM »

What I'm suggesting is we take those options off the table and replace them with bite-sized benefits that mimick the ebb and flow of grappling, and put the Big Goals of Grappling (tm) somewhere else in the system, safely away from casual use.

I'd be fine with this.

I think it's kinda awful, actually. As a player, I want to be able to pull off routine moves from source material as soon as possible. Being able to grab someone and restrain them/beat them into unconsciousness is an assumed baseline capability fo any even vaguely martially inclined character -- which basically means adventurers and certainly anyone rated for field work by an agency.

If you don't provide options for the sort of take-down of mundanes by specials that we're used to in our mass media, I think you're failing in making an appropriately cinematic game.

I could not agree more. It was the focus of nearly half a day at the last summit.

So part of the problem is that the curent rules obviously don't differentiate enough between specials and mundanes.

However, those options have to be there from 1st level. It's been a notion that I've found disengaging from SC 1.0 that 1st level are still meant to be highly trained operatives yet the sort of cinemeatic stunts we want out characters to achieve are difficult if not outright impossible until they're much higher level.

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But you know what, heroes get grappled and the shit kicked out of them all the time regardless of the genre.

True. So I'll also ask the opposite question (and we can have both of these questions run in tandem - everyone just be sure to clearly identify which you're speaking to when you reply)...

Would you be comfortable with a grappling system that simply took the safety features off the action? It actually is That. Damn. Powerful. A sufficiently trained character could simply grab someone and end that person's involvement in the combat in, oh, say, 1 full action.

Would that work for everyone?

Seriously, I want to know.

Except that's not how grappling works, even under the more popular interpretation of the rules, so raising this spectre of the 1 round instagimp of specials doesn't make sense.

As you've acknowledged yourself, grappling isn't better than standard combat for a special character because it renders you significantly more vulnerable, and focuses your attention entirely on the person(s) you're grappling. As I interpret the rules, it also effectively nerfs every single reactive combat ability -- such as combat instincts or parry -- that you possess. Heck, you can't even inflict critical hits with it, even using the expanded 2.0 version of the rules.

It's a high-risk high-reward strategy
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Viperion
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« Reply #63 on: July 31, 2012, 07:22:34 PM »

However, those options have to be there from 1st level. It's been a notion that I've found disengaging from SC 1.0 that 1st level are still meant to be highly trained operatives yet the sort of cinemeatic stunts we want out characters to achieve are difficult if not outright impossible until they're much higher level.
With the greatest of respect, perhaps a level-based system is not for you then. 1st level agents can't put a Barett round through a penny at a mile either, but a trained sniper certainly could.
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Sletchman
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« Reply #64 on: July 31, 2012, 07:27:57 PM »

But I don't see how my "I would be loathe to use a system that injures myself when successful" automatically jumps to "so you never take(s) them alive".

I didn't.

Quote from: You
And (IMO) a system so marginally useful (that is, there are only a very specific set of circumstances where it becomes an attractive option) doesn't deserve to be in the book.

"Marginally useful" and "doesn't deserve to be in the book" certainly says that taking them down alive is a pretty low priority.  Takedowns are in hundreds of espionage and action films and television series - it's a cornerstone of many action sequences.  Interrogation is an absolute staple.  The ability to capture and take someone in a quick and cinematic fashion as to be represented by the game system, or the system fails to represent it's core inspiration.  Yes this is the Fantasy Craft forum, but it's printed, and Pat did say "moving forward" (a none-to-subtle hint about SC / 10k Bullets) - it also occurs in plenty of fantasy material.  The hero takes down the enemy, pins them in place and then manacles them so they can be taken in (as bounty, or for information).

True. So I'll also ask the opposite question (and we can have both of these questions run in tandem - everyone just be sure to clearly identify which you're speaking to when you reply)...

Would you be comfortable with a grappling system that simply took the safety features off the action? It actually is That. Damn. Powerful. A sufficiently trained character could simply grab someone and end that person's involvement in the combat in, oh, say, 1 full action.

Would that work for everyone?

Seriously, I want to know.

Yes, with a qualifier.  Standard NPCs.  The average time it takes to end their involvement, for a sufficiently trained character, is a round (a half action, without Tough).  So that syncs up fairly nicely.  In fact, Grappling needs to acknowledge the difference between the two the way that the rest of Combat does.


EDIT: I agree with almost everything Mr Andersen typed.  Funny old world, since we're usually opposite sides of a debate.
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« Reply #65 on: July 31, 2012, 07:40:36 PM »

Quote from: You
And (IMO) a system so marginally useful (that is, there are only a very specific set of circumstances where it becomes an attractive option) doesn't deserve to be in the book.
"Marginally useful" and "doesn't deserve to be in the book" certainly says that taking them down alive is a pretty low priority. 
Ah I see the disconnect Smiley

My whole post, including the bit I've left quoted in this post, was in regard to your proposed system (where grappling inflicts subdual damage on the attacker). I was not saying that grappling as a whole is 'marginally useful'.

People are weird, especially when it comes to games. They will very seldom take an option which disadvantages them in any way, unless that disadvantage is completely overwhelmed by the results of the action. To take a more concrete example (and I hope you play Magic: The Gathering...): Take City of Brass. It's a land that taps for any colour of mana (very very powerful) but damages you whenever it is tapped. Despite having virtually no drawback in the grand scheme of things, it's not regarded as a good card (I generalise) and is not often used, but other lands, which have less of an advantage but no drawback are used in it's place.

I see your proposed system being the same. The hardcore players will see that your disadvantage is a temporary and insignificant one, while the vast majority of players will look at it and see only that they're getting punished for doing something "right" which is so unbelievably unattractive to them that they'll simply never use it, no matter how good it can be proved to be.
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ludomastro
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« Reply #66 on: July 31, 2012, 08:04:08 PM »

For a second, imagine a system where ... <snip>

So... In theory and without hard mechanics to consider, would that be an acceptable approach?

I'm fine with this.

Would you be comfortable with a grappling system that simply took the safety features off the action? It actually is That. Damn. Powerful. A sufficiently trained character could simply grab someone and end that person's involvement in the combat in, oh, say, 1 full action.

No, I would not.  As has been pointed out there is abusive potential.  And honestly, that's my yardstick.  If you don't want the NPC's to pull it on a PC, then it probably shouldn't work the other way around - unless feat chains come into play.
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magustoad
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« Reply #67 on: July 31, 2012, 08:07:11 PM »


What I'm suggesting is we take those options off the table and replace them with bite-sized benefits that mimick the ebb and flow of grappling, and put the Big Goals of Grappling (tm) somewhere else in the system, safely away from casual use.


This^2.    I'm definitely looking for more Jason Bourne and less Joyce Gracie.  Let the Big Guys do Big Things.  Throw opponents.  Smash them against things, more dynamic actions and less "arm wrestling" if that makes sense.  

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« Reply #68 on: July 31, 2012, 08:15:51 PM »


What I'm suggesting is we take those options off the table and replace them with bite-sized benefits that mimick the ebb and flow of grappling, and put the Big Goals of Grappling (tm) somewhere else in the system, safely away from casual use.


This^2.    I'm definitely looking for more Jason Bourne and less Joyce Gracie.  Let the Big Guys do Big Things.  Throw opponents.  Smash them against things, more dynamic actions and less "arm wrestling" if that makes sense.  


I >think< you can have both.   There is grapple for restraint/shove into walls/wrestle for weapon.  Then there is Grapple with intent to break bones or submit.
You should be able to do basic grappling out of the box.  You should not be able to pull someone into your guard then while on your back lock in an gogoplata to choke them out, with out training (feats)
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Crafty_Pat
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« Reply #69 on: July 31, 2012, 08:23:59 PM »

You should be able to do basic grappling out of the box.  You should not be able to pull someone into your guard then while on your back lock in an gogoplata to choke them out, with out training (feats)

This is a very bold statement as it defies 30 years of collective RPG expectations. Without derailing the other questions and ongoing dialog - which I'm keenly watching at this point - who agrees or disagrees with the above in principle?
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Patrick Kapera
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SilvercatMoonpaw
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« Reply #70 on: July 31, 2012, 08:28:46 PM »

You should be able to do basic grappling out of the box.  You should not be able to pull someone into your guard then while on your back lock in an gogoplata to choke them out, with out training (feats)

This is a very bold statement as it defies 30 years of collective RPG expectations. Without derailing the other questions and ongoing dialog - which I'm keenly watching at this point - who agrees or disagrees with the above in principle?

Wait, what's Morganti mean and what do you mean?
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Crafty_Pat
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« Reply #71 on: July 31, 2012, 08:38:39 PM »

Wait, what's Morganti mean and what do you mean?

I took his post to mean that a character should be able to do basic (non-pinning, non-debilitating) grapple moves at Level 1, with most if not all builds. I also took his statement to mean that you a character should not be able to perform pinning and/or debilitating moves at the same.

For the purposes of my question, that's the distinction I'm asking about.
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Patrick Kapera
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« Reply #72 on: July 31, 2012, 08:54:12 PM »

Wait, what's Morganti mean and what do you mean?

I took his post to mean that a character should be able to do basic (non-pinning, non-debilitating) grapple moves at Level 1, with most if not all builds. I also took his statement to mean that you a character should not be able to perform pinning and/or debilitating moves at the same.

For the purposes of my question, that's the distinction I'm asking about.
This is mostly correct.

I am of the mind that there is middle ground between Grappling is useless, and Grappling is the one true way.
I think that in a level based cinematic rpg system, a level 1 character can be assumed to be able to do things at what many might call an above average level.
As such, a level 1 character with the appropriate training (proficiency) can throw a lethal punch, use a sword, shoot a gun, or engage in some movie style wrestling (basic grappling)
A character who then puts time in to developing his abilities, can take that basic training above and beyond.  For grappling specifically, i am not opposed to Pro Wrestling/MMA style grapple tricks being put into feats that you work up toward. I don't think you should be able to pull off some of the more insane stuff with out heavy investment of training.  You become Hulk McSavage grappling master because that is your schtick.  Genre emulation and representation is important, but so is game balance, and that is what I personally is what I would be shooting for.

Also, I have great faith in Crafty. So yeah, bold statement bout grappling, but that is because I am not looking at it like a sacred cow.  Im looking at it like its just one part of a tool box of ways to deal with pesky npcs of the standard and special variety that involve putting the hurt on them!
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« Reply #73 on: July 31, 2012, 09:05:20 PM »

I took his post to mean that a character should be able to do basic (non-pinning, non-debilitating) grapple moves at Level 1, with most if not all builds. I also took his statement to mean that you a character should not be able to perform pinning and/or debilitating moves at the same.

For the purposes of my question, that's the distinction I'm asking about.
Technically speaking isn't that what we have now? A level 1 character is totally able to grab and pin someone straight out of the box (although they're not *good* at it).

Let's assume for the sake of this argument that this is the exhaustive list of things you can do while grappling (it's not, obviously. Bear with me for the sake of simplicity):

Grab
Pin
Trip
Push
Screaming Club (<--- Look! A reference to the original post!)

If your question is, should all of these options be available to Level 1 characters without investment in feats, I'd say no. Grab? Sure. Trip? Iffy, but I'd say yes. Push? Yes. Pin? No, not without special training (feats). Screaming Club? Hell no.

So a Level 1 character could Grab, Trip and Push without specialised training. They could be better at it by taking the appropriate feats. Those feats could also open up Pin and Screaming Club as tricks, or perhaps those abilities would need to have feats of their own.


I think that in a level based cinematic rpg system, a level 1 character can be assumed to be able to do things at what many might call an above average level.
As such, a level 1 character with the appropriate training (proficiency) can throw a lethal punch, use a sword, shoot a gun, or engage in some movie style wrestling (basic grappling)
I agree with all of that.
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You become Hulk McSavage grappling master because that is your schtick.
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Me too Smiley
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magustoad
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« Reply #74 on: July 31, 2012, 09:20:47 PM »

In so much as there are trip, pummel and other basic attacks, yeah I agree with that.  Basic grapple/close quarters attacks are a welcome addition.
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