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Author Topic: Walk me through Grapple:Screaming Club  (Read 5335 times)
Bill Whitmore
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« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2012, 08:43:40 PM »

Also worth noting the number of people who interpret the rule exactly as you did LK because all the extra rounds otherwise required before you can do anything useful with grapple do no one any favours
There are also people interpreting it that way because it was was erroneously written and it had nothing at all to do with any extra time it takes.

There are a several reasons I am an advocate for characters not giving extra grapple benefits to their opponents if they fail their check:
   First, there aren't really any other game options that give you anything if your opponent fails at something that don't require you to have purchased some sort of ability via Origin, class levels, feats or proficiencies (tricks).

   Second, it leads directly to my response in the linked thread where the best tactical course of action for the lesser skilled grappler is to do nothing and Delay his turn away.  The alternative is to struggle and make things easier for the guy trying to pin/kill you.

   Third, there is a Wrestling Supremacy trick that allows you to Coup de Grace pinned characters.  That someone can get held on Initiative count X, pinned on X-1 and then Coup de Graced by someone else on x-2 is pretty lame.  Yes, there are other forms of attacks that can bring down targets just as quickly, but just about all of them require at least a critical success along with action dice expenditure to activate said critical and none of them require the cooperation of the guy they are trying to kill.

   The last one you don't see as often, but up to 4 opponents can grapple a target the same size.  If you get grapple benefits from your opponent's actions, you could theoretically get up to 3, 4 or even 5 grapple benefits per round if you can beat all the people who tried to dog pile you.
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« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2012, 10:09:49 PM »

I'm entirely against opponents gaining grapple benefits for the acting character's failure BTW - for all the reasons I worry about grapple in general and all the reasons Bill mentions.

I realize now that my previous comment could be interpreted that I'm in favor of this. To clarify, I'm not.
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« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2012, 11:14:55 PM »

I love the idea of grapple.  Drake-sauce was envisioned to be kind of a brutal fighter using size to advantage.  Y'know grab folk in on claw and slam them into things.  Pin another, rip out guts with teeth.  Swoop down and grab for a short and painful flight.

Unfortunately, it all seems to break down due to the full-action mechanic.  Even before the MA-based boosts it is just plain more efficient to attack twice and forgo grapple.  I'd refund the wrestling line but the stat boosts keep me locked in.  Although the one time I got Piledriver to land it was GLORIOUS.  The other 4 times I've attempted it were spectacular failures.

I'm not sure what I'd do to fix it, but it just feels off in pacing.  Unless you are using the grapple as a 'soft control' to keep the baddie from slinging spells or something, you'd almost always want to do something else.  Otherwise you are still screwing around with one opponent while the party has chewed the rest of the encounter to bits and are looting. 

 As for the defender prompting a bene for the attacker by struggling... ever see Joyce Gracie fight?  That how that man wins; like a python... the more you struggle the more you give him latitude to work his arm-snapping mojo on you.
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« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2012, 11:16:51 PM »

We're very sensitive to grapple being too powerful as, to be honest, it borders on broken in nearly every other d20/OGL game on the market (at least, IMHOs).
Yes, yes, yes OH GOD YES. The ease with which you can take people completely out of a fight in other d20 games (disclaimer: I don't play D&D 4 so don't know how their one works) is mind numbing. Sure, it's a real-life winner but it doesn't at all fit the larger-than-life-movie style games I enjoy Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2012, 11:39:16 PM »

Care to give some concrete examples? Because reading over the 3rd edition/d20, they're a mess of AoOs and temporary conditions that just grinds out the process of grappling (relying on attack rather than athletics checks, too) that don't seem in any way more optimal than standard combat.
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« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2012, 11:52:22 PM »

At work so my concrete isn't here Smiley

But it's usually trivially easy for a fighter-type to grapple a wizard type and essentially take them out of combat for the duration. The other issue with grappling - as you allude to - is that it is a very slow way of actually inflicting damage, and so drags out fights with opposed checks that other d20 combat mini-systems don't bother with.

If you build the character for it (and that's as easy as taking "Improved Grapple" at 1st level) you avoid the AoO. You only have to hit touch AC, and if you have higher strength and higher BaB (both extremely likely) the chances of your opponent actually getting to do anything are near-zero. And it's a bore to adjudicate.

Basically, I'd be happy if the option to grapple didn't even exist (at least, the ongoing, round to round, make two grapple checks per round version)
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« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2012, 11:59:34 PM »

The key to grappeling is a mix of being oppotunistic and the Surge of Speed feat.
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« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2012, 01:11:07 AM »

The key to grappeling is a mix of being oppotunistic and the Surge of Speed feat.

What?  I tried, but honestly can't make sense of this statement.
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« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2012, 07:52:17 AM »

As for the defender prompting a bene for the attacker by struggling... ever see Joyce Gracie fight?  That how that man wins; like a python... the more you struggle the more you give him latitude to work his arm-snapping mojo on you.
Except, as Bill pointed out, that falls down due to the way mechanics work: the defender can choose to forgo the check on their turn by taking Delay.  The rules don't force the defender to allow the second check.

I wonder if some of this isn't due to people thinking simulationally instead of narratively: knocking a guy against a wall is a move inflicting Stun, knocking him to the ground is a move inflicting Prone.  Attack-type actions so you could do more than one of them a round.  Just describe them as grabbing someone.  The only time you actually need Grapple is when you intend to keep holding them.

Possibly there should be a half-action attack called Grab that inflicts a condition that's about half of what Held is.  With Grab you could do your half-action Stun/Prone attack and then start your grappling in the same round but it wouldn't be overpowered.  I'm not sure what subsequent rounds would look like, whether you'd be allowed to go from Grab to full Grapple with only an additional half-action (seeing as how you already "started" the grapple in a previous round) or what.
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« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2012, 01:45:51 PM »

As for the defender prompting a bene for the attacker by struggling... ever see Joyce Gracie fight?  That how that man wins; like a python... the more you struggle the more you give him latitude to work his arm-snapping mojo on you.
Except, as Bill pointed out, that falls down due to the way mechanics work: the defender can choose to forgo the check on their turn by taking Delay.  The rules don't force the defender to allow the second check.

Incorrect.  You can delay up to your Initiative Modifier + 10 times.  That's it.  You can't Delay endlessly, or forgo your check - at best, you can buy some time (something that very much does happen in real grappling matches).  The rules do force the defender to make a second check, eventually.

Not having a go at you personally, but for some reason people keep bringing up Delay as a check mitigator in various grapple threads, and it just doesn't work the way they claim it does.  There is a very strict limit how much you can Delay - it's written right into the action.

The key to grappeling is a mix of being oppotunistic and the Surge of Speed feat.

What?  I tried, but honestly can't make sense of this statement.

Without explanation, all I can assume is that you were referring to the Opportunist feat from Spycraft (which, I think it's safe to assume others would have imported to FC, too).  That gives you a half attack when one of the enemies team mates goes down - so half way to starting a grapple.  Then you mention Surge of Speed (to get the other half action) - which quite explicitly can't be used for an attack action (which grapple very clearly is).  So if that was your plan - have Opportunist kick in and then Surge of Speed to get into a grapple, your plan simply doesn't work (because it breaks the rules).  I can't think of any other explanation to your statement, so perhaps you meant something else.
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« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2012, 02:03:16 PM »

You can delay up to your Initiative Modifier + 10 times.
[Clarity Pedant]You mean "You can Delay your Count, by 1, Initiative bonus + 10 times per round".[/Clarity Pedant]

Though okay, you're right.  (But why wasn't this pointed out earlier? Huh?)
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« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2012, 02:09:10 PM »

Don't you lose you action for that round if your initiative count drops too low? 

Or was that just part of SC's movable initiative?
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« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2012, 02:24:53 PM »

Actually, Delay does let you skip a turn. Full quote:

Quote from: Second Printing, page 219
He may take this action a number of times per round equal to his Initiative bonus + 10, at which point he must act or forfeit his chance to act during the current round.

So yeah, doing nothing is a legit tactic.
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Bill Whitmore
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« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2012, 02:59:25 PM »

Thanks, Antilles.  You saved me from having to look up the page number and quote! Cheesy
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« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2012, 03:27:50 PM »

The key to grappeling is a mix of being oppotunistic and the Surge of Speed feat.

What?  I tried, but honestly can't make sense of this statement.

Without explanation, all I can assume is that you were referring to the Opportunist feat from Spycraft (which, I think it's safe to assume others would have imported to FC, too).  That gives you a half attack when one of the enemies team mates goes down - so half way to starting a grapple.  Then you mention Surge of Speed (to get the other half action) - which quite explicitly can't be used for an attack action (which grapple very clearly is).  So if that was your plan - have Opportunist kick in and then Surge of Speed to get into a grapple, your plan simply doesn't work (because it breaks the rules).  I can't think of any other explanation to your statement, so perhaps you meant something else.

I'm pretty sure he meant that since Grapple is a full action and therefore somewhat slow, you can use Surge of Speed to approach your enemy, assuming they're just one movement away, then still have your full action to initiate the grapple. The first part (be opportunistic) wasn't necessarily a prerequisite of this tactic, just him saying to be clever about who/how/when you grapple. (At least I think this is what he meant, correct me if I'm wrong, Krensky)
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