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Author Topic: Dissociated mechanics and a gamer manifesto  (Read 2950 times)
Krensky
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« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2014, 12:38:49 AM »

Yeah... No.

Hero is, to use a car analogy, a Saab. Which probably won't mean anything to you, so go watch Top Gear's Tribute to Saab.

As for greatness, you do realise that Pathfinder is the best selling game for a reason? Polished presentation, good art, etc. Your other comments read like a someone who's never really read or played PF and just wants to hate on it because it's not the little brown books. I'm not a huge fan of Pathfinder, its why I play FC, but it's not what you're saying it is. It can be, but so can any game if the GM allows it.

Frankly, your posts are insulting and dismissive of the hard work that actual designers put into their games and craft. Especially since your example of a great RPG looks like the results of some thirteen-year olds sitting around an internet forum snickering and going on about how cool they are for stealing WotC and GDWs IP and combining it with hipster internet troll gibberish

Crafty produces highly crunchy narrative games with a certain minimalist bent. That includes some so called 'dissociated' mechanics. They aren't as far to that extent as Fate, but Spycraft and Fantasy Craft have more in common with Fate than they do with Pathfinder.
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Jackal_mkII
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« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2014, 02:02:43 AM »

Fantasy hero and champs complete are not dumbed down, again they simply don't include the optional rulesets.

"Simplified." "Basic." "Dumbed-Down." Regardless of how you choose to word it, it still stripped the complex bits and set them off to the side in the options box in order to bring in newer fans because this "magnum opus" of a game still has bills to pay. While I am legitimately happy you have gotten people interested in a system you love, half of the people in my group have been with the system since third or fourth edition and feel that sixth is actually a step down from fifth. That's just a matter of taste, I guess? I didn't come into it until they were testing out 6th, and I still prefer systems dedicated to their own genre.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 02:04:33 AM by Jackal_mkII » Logged

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Baalbamoth
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« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2014, 07:30:58 AM »

@ Crafty_Alex- the key to this marketing strategy I think is, "Dont Need but Want" I ran a 2 year eclipse phase game, started out owning 0 books, within the first month we bought three core books, then I used supplements for some things and my players went out and bought about half the supplements offered, when the new "transhuman" book came out, all my players got it in record time. by the end of that campaign, I speculate my group paid about $400.00 for books that were all available online for free. I really hope Spycraft and the other crafty games followed a similar marketing strategy, its sure working for Paizo and Transhuman Studios. Free=more books sales because free= more new players/GMs who will eventually want books even if they don't start out with them.

Jackal- not really, generally speaking you don't use lethal/maiming rules in four color comics (superman might be able to rip a guy's arm off, yet its not too common in that kid friendly genre) so those rules wernt included in Champions. They WERE included as options in fantasy hero. so its not so much they stripped them out, they are genre books that include the rules necessary for their genres.

as far as bills to pay... not really HGS now is mostly PDF with occasional kickstarters to print more books or adventures or whatever. I actually prefer that model, but game stores hate it. Kickstarter is a big reason why many smaller gaming stores are going out of business. (why by reaper pathfinder mini's when I can get the next batch from Kickstarter for half the price, or order them direct from the company at near wholesale prices) side note: Brookhurst Hobbies has been the main gaming store in Orange County CA since the 80s, I wanted to get some bloodbowl type game, and saw it was twice as expensive there than on kickstarter, when I mentioned this to the owner he flew into a rage about how people like me are assuring that stores like his go out of business.... I just wanted to save a few bucks...

@krensky- I played a 2 yr rise of the runelords campaign (where combats became first to win init became winner of the battle at 14th level.. killed Karzug the ultimate PF BBEG in the first action of the first round) played another year of "the crimson throne" and that was enough for me to figure out the game's balance issues are so incredibly bad its almost unplayable for anyone with a smidgeon of system mastery. art great, core rules ok (but you can still get mages throwing around 1,400 hp attack spells with just core, check out the DPR Olympics on the paizo forums) and supplements that are killing PF in the exact same way they killed 3.5 D&D... really the only thing besides great art and good scenario design PF had going for it was it wasn't 4.0 which with the OGL is what created/supercharged Paizo... into overplayed system mediocrity.  PS Ryan Dancy is the CEO of goblin works now, the guy who created the OGL the play for Hasbro/mmo4.0 and basically killed D&D got hired by Paizo... big surprise. Ryan Dancy... he's like the Dan Quail of RPG execs...
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Jackal_mkII
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« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2014, 10:59:03 AM »

You do realize that I'm talking about Fantasy Hero Complete, which is the book they just kickstartered which is a streamlined and simplified version of the same Fantasy Hero they just did for 6th edition, right? The guy who is writing it is in my gaming group. I think I have an idea of what I'm talking about.

And do you also realize that Kickstarter isn't a store? It's a platform to fund projects that people, for the most part, plan to sell after the fact. Amazon is killing Brick and Mortar, not Kickstarter.
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Krensky
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« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2014, 11:43:00 AM »

Kickstarter isn't killing brick and mortar. It's also not the solution to everything that ails the industry. It lets ideas and designers get money up front rather than hoping they can cover their costs after publishing. Using it's also potentially dangerous since it's really, really easy to mess up your schedule or profits with streatch goals and rewards. See OGRE 6 for the former and (if memory serves) Tenra Bansho Zero for the later.

Like Jackal said, brick and mortar is being killed by Amazon and the general proliferation of direct sales from publishers. Also that a lot of local game stores are not places you really want to go and are run by people with the buisness sense of a lemming on speed.

As for your complaints about Pathfinder, yeah, right. They read like every other 'PF suxors and is unbalanced' harangue I've ever seen. Every game will break if the GM lets it. Even your Hero. Some are harder than others, but they all will break when you let the munchkins system masters do whatever they want. Which typically involves some very sketchy rules interpretations and an absurdly literalist "but the rules don't say it doesn't work" logic.

I get that you don't like Pathfinder because in your circle of friends it's not cool to like the popular game. If you want to be a 'old skool rpg' hipster who needs to be rude and insult others who don't subscribe to the personal preferences of whoever runs your little gang of friends, knock yourself out. Feel free to pontificate ignorantly on the art and science of game design and the soul crushing grind of running a gaming company to those who have successfully done both. Go right ahead and bad-mouth Ryan Dancy with false claim that he killed D&D or that he had anything to do with 4.0 (cute job working the MMO chestnut in there too, bravo).

Do all those things. May they make you feel superior and like a big man on the internet. I really don't care.

Just don't expect people outside your little hipster clique to treat you seriously.
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We can lick gravity, but sometimes the paperwork is overwhelming. - Werner von Braun
Right now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.
There's no upside in screwing with things you can't explain. - Captain Roy Montgomery
Baalbamoth
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« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2014, 05:03:16 AM »

I haven't jumped on board the kickstarter express for minis, but know plenty that have, reaper was (or is) using kickstarter as a way to pre-sell miniatures, only selling the line to people who signed on to the fundraising. They were selling roughly 800.00 of direct sale new resin mini's (retail cost) for about 300.00 to participants, and they arent the only ones doing this, last I looked there were about 10 game companies (malifaux included) doing this sort of thing.

Krensky- yeah right, every game has identical horrible balance issues you can completely blame on bad GMing... 1) hero is hard as hell for a player to unbalance, every power which has an unbalancing aspect shows a symbol (exclamation point, magnifying glass, stop sign etc) making their use in character creation "requiring GM approval" or making sure the DM take extra time to carefully examine their use, further active vs real cost game limits also make it incredibly hard to break the system with unbalance.

PF hands you 300+ totally unbalanced feats, some class/prestige class combos that without any min/max tweakering (beastmorph alchemests/master summoners, etc) will totally unbalance a game (DM just has to disallow these) and when the game does break (every long PF campaign I've ever been in, seen or heard about running past 14th level) there are people saying "it was the DM's fault, hey he was askin for it by allowing xyz combo" when there are litterally thousands of unbalancing combos, the game is full of them.

No... its not the DMs, its not the players, it's just a bad game. (and PFS and "core only" restricted play barely alleviates that... IE. thanks for spending 400.00 on books your DM wont let you use because half the crap you want to use for your character from them is broken.)

ryan dancey creates the OGL     http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/md/md20020228e

After being fired claims the OGL helped kill D&D and put it into a "death spiral" http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?254049-Ryan-Dancey-D-amp-D-in-a-Death-Spiral

Ryan Dancey predicts this is the last generation of the TTRPG players, and only a few old guys huddled around PF will remain in the near future... http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?315800-4-Hours-w-RSD-Escapist-Bonus-Column

(note he lies about a lot in here, and conveniently neglects to mention his own "IE many' responsibilities for the fall)

the other article I cant find is one where Dancy admitted their design of 4.0 was aimed at the VTT, IE making a game that would transition from tabletop to digital formats easily, (this was why no flying abilities past one round were available in the game, the graphics engine planned would not allow sustained flight) IE the D&D MMO.

Krensky don't take this the wrong way but please do more research before you try and crap all over what I'm saying.

edit... LOL on a whim I wanted to see how Dancey's new project is going, Pathfinder Online.... I got into it with him on those forums when it was first announced he would be CEO, and I sort of predicted this...

"add to this that I have never (from Alpha testing World of Warcraft to present) seen a CEO argue, insult, and attempt to silence paying customers in quite the way you have done over the past year."

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r40g&page=1?To-Ryan-Dancey-One-Players-Concerns
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 05:18:12 AM by Baalbamoth » Logged
Jackal_mkII
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« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2014, 10:40:39 AM »

I haven't jumped on board the kickstarter express for minis, but know plenty that have, reaper was (or is) using kickstarter as a way to pre-sell miniatures, only selling the line to people who signed on to the fundraising. They were selling roughly 800.00 of direct sale new resin mini's (retail cost) for about 300.00 to participants, and they arent the only ones doing this, last I looked there were about 10 game companies (malifaux included) doing this sort of thing.

That's incentivizing the investment of a product line that they distribute later on. Reaper's Bones line actually is being sold in brick and mortar stores and through online distribution. They offered a large discount on the minis in order to fund the costs of the machines and molds needed to make them. Everything presented in both of those kickstarters is available, or will be available for purchase through their distributors. (exclusive incentives do exist but not for this particular case.)  Not to sound harsh, but you may want to take your own advice about research...

Quote
yeah right, every game has identical horrible balance issues you can completely blame on bad GMing... 1) hero is hard as hell for a player to unbalance, every power which has an unbalancing aspect shows a symbol (exclamation point, magnifying glass, stop sign etc) making their use in character creation "requiring GM approval" or making sure the DM take extra time to carefully examine their use, further active vs real cost game limits also make it incredibly hard to break the system with unbalance.

uh...  our group unbalances Hero often enough, with very little effort. Granted, some of them have been with the system for eons...



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