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Author Topic: Delivery wait  (Read 1944 times)
Stubbazubba
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« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2012, 11:00:57 AM »

A lot of more indie-leaning game companies feel like bringing in business people to run the business is a real good way to cramp up their style.  Worst case scenario, meeting deadlines becomes more important than good games, and at that point everyone knows the company has 'sold out.'
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« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2012, 11:25:43 AM »

Stay on target...




Edit: Admittedly, that's bigger than I was intending...
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 01:48:01 PM by Dreamstreamer » Logged
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« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2012, 04:24:38 PM »

What Crafty Games really needs is a business manager. Someone to handle all the logistics and dealing with printers and arranging of files so that you have more time to do what you do best: produce content. Every second you deal with business issues instead of finishing Spellbound working on new content is a wasted second.

We couldn't agree more. It's why we brought on Erik Yaple as our Production Manager, though that's also a small contributing factor in the delays this spring. Spinning up new staff, new tools, and new procedures isn't easy or fast, unfortunately.
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« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2012, 04:24:44 PM »

Stay on target...

Edit: Admittedly, that's bigger than I was intending...

What's that from?
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« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2012, 04:48:16 PM »

Stay on target...

Edit: Admittedly, that's bigger than I was intending...

What's that from?

Star Wars A New Hope.  Its an image from the targeting computer they were using to zero in on the Death Star's exhaust port with the words "ALMOST THERE" inscribed across the top.

The targeting computer and the phrases "Almost there" and "Stay on target" are all from that scene.
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« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2012, 04:50:51 PM »

Star Wars A New Hope.  Its an image from the targeting computer they were using to zero in on the Death Star's exhaust port with the words "ALMOST THERE" inscribed across the top.

The targeting computer and the phrases "Almost there" and "Stay on target" are all from that scene.

I figured, but the graphics seemed... off to me.
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« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2012, 04:53:24 PM »

Yea, I THINK it may be stretched width-wise to fit the stylized "ALMOST THERE" that makes it look wonky.
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« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2012, 05:00:33 PM »

Yea, I THINK it may be stretched width-wise to fit the stylized "ALMOST THERE" that makes it look wonky.

It looks like a Journey album cover to me.
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« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2012, 06:37:40 PM »

Nobody buy the book for the next half hour or so, kay? Wink

Just kidding - all orders will be processed without issue, but we're in the midst of updating the back end and will be sending out the news shortly.
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« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2012, 07:55:12 PM »

Woot. Good news.
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« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2012, 08:01:35 PM »

What I specifically don't think we'll be able to do much anymore is post-production proofing. I'd love to, I really would, but it demands that a product essentially be trapped in that limbo between digital and print for what the market is telling us is an untenable period. Perhaps we'll eventually figure out how to get the system down to something that folks find tolerable, but based on this experience we're clearly not there yet, and we'd much rather deliver what we can promise than continue to experiment at a time when you just need us producing.

It's a bit of a catch 22. MAG was such a new product and so core that it really benefitted from that process. But it also took much longer than it would for many RPG products.

Maybe having a much tighter plan time wise would help i.e. release the book and allow only two weeks for comments and then proceed with the changes and print. If major issues are raised, this could always be modified as you went. IIRC Legends of the Wulin did something like that and had the book off to print in March as a result.
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« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2012, 08:13:21 PM »

Woot. Good news.

Direct sale uploads done (it's a bit of a pain now, but hopefully we'll improve that process by the next direct sale). On to updates!
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« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2012, 09:47:30 PM »

Woot. Good news.

Direct sale uploads done (it's a bit of a pain now, but hopefully we'll improve that process by the next direct sale). On to updates!

...and it looks like those updates will be rolling in over the next several hours (long story - don't ask), so no one should fret unless they don't see one by morning (that's morning Pacific Time). You'll know the process is complete when the news hits our front page, as we're holding that back until we know all the emails and updates are out there and the story won't be misleading to anyone.

(cannotwaitforthenewstoretogolive,sotiredosafrassarawr!)
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« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2012, 09:57:47 PM »

It's a bit of a catch 22. MAG was such a new product and so core that it really benefitted from that process. But it also took much longer than it would for many RPG products.

Maybe having a much tighter plan time wise would help i.e. release the book and allow only two weeks for comments and then proceed with the changes and print. If major issues are raised, this could always be modified as you went. IIRC Legends of the Wulin did something like that and had the book off to print in March as a result.

We've considered this but there are two immediate issues...

  • First, there's the practical reality - that in our experience anything short of a month is too narrow a window for any meaningful review of an RPG product. Folks have to read the work, possibly play with it, discuss it with their group and/or friends, and then find the time to reply. We've had Call to Arms products stay in playtesting longer than a month and they're less than 10 pages in length. With something this big the amount of time we took is right in the zone, and possibly even a bit shy of adequate time to catch everything.
  • Second, there's the customer service issue. It doesn't matter how often or how loudly you explain what you're doing, no one accepts that they have to wait more than 4-6 weeks for something they've paid for. That range has been ingrained in our cultural understanding of the order and delivery process by 30 years of commercials, infomercials, ads, and website listings. That kind of turnaround doesn't just make post-production proofing impossible, it means your product must already be at the printer before you take even a single order, and given that everyone also wants bundles that pretty much kills the post-production proofing idea dead.

Like I said, I'd love to work up a system for making this happen with all our products. I agree that it helps the end product and solves some of the editorial and mechanical issues that periodically crop up with RPGs (though I stand by my assertion that we generally have some of the best edited and least problematic products on the market today, which hopefully makes it less of a vital necessity). I just can't get past the logistical issues and the very real concern that by satisfying one part of the customer base we're driving another away - perhaps forever.
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« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2012, 04:09:19 AM »

We only send out major updates via email. It prevents us from ever hedging into spam territory.
I appreciate that. However, I think "we won't make the promised date" (in March) is major news, in the way that it prevents the "you expected to have you book by now. well, uh, just wait another two months" (in early June). In the latest mail you don't even offer an explanation; if I had not been reading here, that would be frustrating.
Note that I don't object the delay -- I know what you have spent the time on -- but the lack of communication for non-forum-readers.

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We've updated posts before and receive complaints that we didn't send out a completely separate update. We've sent out completely separate updates and been accused of spamming, or worse, drawn more ire than we would by simply staying quiet until we have an update.
It's unfortunate that some folks don't seem to appreciate an honest update. Of course, admitting management mistakes will always hurt to some degree; imho, doing so as early as often it the most professional and courteous way. But then, I am no professional so I can't estimate the repercussions.

Quote
We like the benefits of post-production review as well, but the reality of that scenario is that the finished books wouldn't arrive for months afterward. Even if we instituted a rigid schedule and stuck to it, I'm not sure we'd come out ahead. In this modern age of immediate gratification, anticipation fatigue comes on very quickly and has a dramatic impact on the health of a brand.
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no one accepts that they have to wait more than 4-6 weeks for something they've paid for.
You opened preorders in August 2011, five months before expected shipping which was originally January 2012, iirc. That's already well over four to six weeks, so that time frame seems to be a non-issue at this point. So you opened preorder to early; as far as I can tell, at which point this happens is largely independent of the development process; that is, you can do the same process as for MAG but just open preorders later, and you are golden.

Quote
What I specifically don't think we'll be able to do much anymore is post-production proofing. I'd love to, I really would, but it demands that a product essentially be trapped in that limbo between digital and print for what the market is telling us is an untenable period.
I see the problem. What about you release your "beta" version properly, but digital only with guaranteed updates? That would be different from what you did with MAG mostly by name, but still. Imagine you had started "presale" when you had the first document. You would have been on the market, people had play"tested" and then you could have done the revision on the market. Of course you have to communicate that strategy to early buyers so they know that glitches are expected and they should report them. This way, you might be able to combine immediate gratification ("Oh, cool, there is MAG! Pay! Download! Play!") with a more slow-paced, community-supported refining process that leads to a (better) printed book.

This is my first experience with Crafty and you come out of this on average scale. I like the product, I like the participation, I don't like the (in hindsight) impossible shipment dates. I think you tried to tread a middle ground that does not work; you announced early, at a point where you did not even have a beta product, but promised dates, too. From my experience (as a customer), if you announce early everything but "it's done when it's done" has to fail (note how exceptionally well Blizzard has been doing with "it's done when it's done"; they have built a reputation for taking their time but always delivering quality). The opposite approach is to announce only when you have something to put hands on. If you want community participation, it has to be the former (unless you start using for instance some private forum for community testing).

I can only speak for me, but I would have liked "Here you can preorder, here you can participate in the process, it's done when it's done" way more than what happened now -- happily waiting for the promised dates, telling other Mistborn fans they can expect playing the RPG by then, and being disappointed.
(Note also the difference in perception of the final shipping date: "Well, finally, it's about time!" vs "Oh, cool, it's there already?")

Note again that I am not pissed and not even really disappointed. I approve of publishers taking their time to do it right; I have played to many (video) games that sucked until months after release (and patching print books is horribly hard). I just think you should be upfront about that from the start.

PS: I don't even know whether the instant gratification paradigm applies to your target group. P&P RPG is, after all, the opposite of instant gratification as far as gaming goes.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 04:15:46 AM by Akerbos » Logged
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