Priest/Infernalist Gamebreaker

[Bhurano]

Hi there,

one of my buddies wants to play a priest (a druid more or less) and asked about the gamebreaker ability "Divine Intervention". The whole thing came out of the left field and left me a bit speechless to be true.

Since it mimics Wish 2 in all regards does he have to pay the reputation cost? Same goes for the Infernalist he has the ability to bring up any kind of spell with his gamebreaker?

So can both ignore in this special case the reputation cost - like for a resurrection spell or iron body - or do they have to pay?

Since it isn't specifically mentioned I am torn on this one.

As always any help is appreciated.

[Sletchman]

My Opinion: Yes the PC has to pay the Rep cost in both cases if applicable.

Priest:  It only removes the subplot requirement, nothing else.
Infernalist:  It doesn't remove any requirements of the spell being cast.  So you pay Rep cost, and must complete subplots required (in the case of Wish).

[tfwfh]

I agree with Sletchman.  The ability specifically exempts the character from having to make a spellcasting check, pay spell points, or complete a subplot; if it was supposed to remove the rep cost, then it would have said that as well.

But, I don't think it would be a problem if you also remove the rep cost.  It's only once per adventure, and it is the gamebreaker after all.

With Dark Pact though, you should definitely still require paying any reputation costs and other requirements (like completing subplots) for the spell.  It functions per scene, and Dark Pact III works 3 times per scene.  That is entirely too often to ignore the extra costs of powerful spells.

[Bhurano]

Thanks for the help.

In case of the Priest I will use it the way that anyone who uses "Divine Intervention" according to the tennets layed out by the deity/or other source of power, will even have no reputation costs to pay... it can be used once per adventure and I'm ok if that comes off as terrifying powerful.

When it comes down to the Infernalist - after playing one at this weekend in a different game - I have to say, holy crap. It's good that you have to pay the reputation costs of the spells. The ability to pick spells you don't even know or to use one a bit higher than you can cast normally is awesome. Sure his aquired weakness is something that makes me nervous, but on the other hand if all your enemies expect is low level combat magic from the supposed chaneller and he whips out Call Lightning like nobody's business things tend to go downhill for them.

The only thing I hope the Crafty Guys adress is the fact with the "Dark Pact I" ability. A level 10 Infernalist can use it three times and if he is a specialist caster like Chaneller, he ends up with the ability to cast level 9 spells and thus Dark Pact I would be useless. Maybe it would be in the spirit of the Infernalist that he then can overcast or such a thing... like just adding more power to his spells with "Dark Pact 1".

Again, thanks for the help.

[Blankbeard]

I haven't seen the new spellbound documents (I have the old spycraft based ones) but is it possible to get Dark Pact III and Circle of Piower XI?  You'd have to be Channeler 10/ Infernalist 10 and you should get Circle IV from both.  If they moved COP I to level 1 in the Channeler, I think the intention was to allow spells up to COP level in your discipline and other spells one level lower.  If that's the case Dark Pack I should still have a use, allowing you to cast level 9 spells outside of your discipline. 

[Deral]

I haven't seen the new spellbound documents (I have the old spycraft based ones) but is it possible to get Dark Pact III and Circle of Piower XI?  You'd have to be Channeler 10/ Infernalist 10 and you should get Circle IV from both.  If they moved COP I to level 1 in the Channeler, I think the intention was to allow spells up to COP level in your discipline and other spells one level lower.  If that's the case Dark Pack I should still have a use, allowing you to cast level 9 spells outside of your discipline.  

Circle of X, for specialists at least, has been rewritten to accommodate for possible mixups- it has specific mention of "up to a maximum level of 9" and if you're at max level (actually, any time you gain it, if you don't want a new level) you get a Spellcasting feat.

Or you meant IX not XI- I didn't actually look at the rules, haha, if that's the case then, yeah Dark Pact would be a lot less useful, as it only lets you cast spells you know, and you likely won't know many not from your discipline. If you can manage it, however, you could use it in that way.

[Blankbeard]

Typo on my part.  I meant IX (nine, in case) I asked only because I haven't seen the new document and a Mage 10/Infernalist 10 would have Circle of Power VIII (Eight ) and thus Dark Pact I (one) would still have a benefit. 

But I think the new specialists can cast spells in their specialty one level higher than an equal level mage.  So a specialist 10/Infernalist 10 could cast spells from their specialty up to 9th level and other spells they know up to 8th level.  If that's not the case, I've misunderstood the conversations.

[Deral]

Typo on my part.  I meant IX (nine, in case) I asked only because I haven't seen the new document and a Mage 10/Infernalist 10 would have Circle of Power VIII (Eight ) and thus Dark Pact I (one) would still have a benefit. 

But I think the new specialists can cast spells in their specialty one level higher than an equal level mage.  So a specialist 10/Infernalist 10 could cast spells from their specialty up to 9th level and other spells they know up to 8th level.  If that's not the case, I've misunderstood the conversations.

No that's right, a specialist would get 9th level spells in their discipline and 8th in others, but you'd never have the opportunity to learn spells of other disciplines unless you took Spell Library or something similar.

[Blankbeard]

Since you have to know both Calling and Shadow spells to get into Infernalist, one of those is going to be outside your specialty (Calling is in Prophet and Shadow in Reaper, at least in FC main book) so he'd need spell library to get in as a Channeler anyway.

[Krensky]

Unless spell library is getting rewritten, it doesn't let you learn spells outside your school. That's the extra discipline feat, which you can take only once. So that means only mages, reapers, and prophets can become infernalists without some funky multiclassing.

[Sletchman]

One benefit is that you can use Dark Pact to (kinda) get free Spellcasting feats, assuming you don't want to cast 8/9 more then 3 times a scene (which is a reasonable number anyway).  Personally, I'd be looking at Reaper 11/Infernalist 9 - but I've never liked Infernalist's Gamebreaker, and think Undead Type is more useful.

[Bhurano]

@Blankbeard

I am not sure if that is right... In my copy of the Infernalist it states that you have to know 5+ Calling and/or Shadow spells. If I am right - and hopefully so - you can take Infernalist with just 5 spells of one or the other discipline. In my case I decided to take 5 spells of the calling spells per extra discipline feat. Just the minimum token amount to qualify for the Infernalist.

In that case a normally calm scholarly war wizard, but his demonic side gained through a little trip to hell is driving him slowly into unknown territory.

@Sletchman

The Infernalist's Gamebreaker is awesome. Just the ability to pick any spell once per scene without any spellpoint cost and a spellcasting check is nice. Since you have Dark Pact II anyway if you have the gamebreaker you can cast 2 different spells you don't know... awesome. I like versatility.

Undead as a type is awesome... but if I have to pick, Infernalist wins every time.

[Sletchman]

Not correct, Bhurano.  Dark Pact III explicitly only lets you cast spells that you know - so it doesn't let you cast 2 different spells you don't know at all.  Anything else is a house rule (one that would increase the desirability of Dark Pact III for sure, but a house rule nontheless).

Dark Pact II is better in that it will open your options to almost a thousand spells.  Yes you have to make the Spellcasting check, but any mage worth their class levels won't have a problem there.  Dark Pact III is good for when you're outta points, and that's about it (due to the free cast) - and even then, only once (so that spell better be worth it).  The downside is also way harsh - another grade of Tainted for a situational ability doesn't sound like a good deal to me, especially not compared to one of the 11th level abilities you could otherwise access (like Undead type, for example).

[Bhurano]

Ouch... in that case you are totally right. Damn you cursory reading. Thanks for that. In that case the gamebreaker might not be so smart to attain. Too bad, but then again unleashing the highest available chaneller level spell once per scene sounds badass enough for me.

Maybe that will change, when Spellbound comes out... I think from that day on I will be torn between all the available spellcaster options. Seriously the Trickster sounds awesome and that combined with Infernalist sounds awesome².

Tainted is especially fun when coupled with the Corrupting Magic Quality - without it the Infernalist looses much of it's appeal for me. We changed it a bit and said that a demon would use the body as a vessel or break  through it - WH40K inspired to be true. Long story short, in an streak of epic bad luck I botched all rolls to withstand the effects of corrupting magic and aquired tainted grade after tainted grade. Even my buddies didn't thought that so much bad luck could happen so often and encouraged me to go on. Then I botched the last one. Hello, near TPK. Only one survived by jumping out of a window and running like hell. The captains lieutenant was butchered in two different halves. The Scout got an acid treatment which dissolved him and the last that got killed tried to flee through the door, the demons fireball disagreed. Only the burglar survived by jumping out of a window and running like hell.

[Blankbeard]

@Blankbeard

I am not sure if that is right... In my copy of the Infernalist it states that you have to know 5+ Calling and/or Shadow spells. If I am right - and hopefully so - you can take Infernalist with just 5 spells of one or the other discipline. In my case I decided to take 5 spells of the calling spells per extra discipline feat. Just the minimum token amount to qualify for the Infernalist.

In that case a normally calm scholarly war wizard, but his demonic side gained through a little trip to hell is driving him slowly into unknown territory.

I took Deral's comment to indicate that Spellbound's version of Spell Library didn't have a school limitation.  If that's not the case, sure, Extra Discipline is the only way to go.  And you're right, it is calling and/or shadow.

I think replacing dark pact I at high levels is a bad idea as it's a very strong ability up until then. If it is an issue that the GM thinks needs to be resolved, maybe allowing each use of Dark Pact I to reduce spell point cost by 1 would work.  But again, I don't think you need that.  It's like a specialized Charger who has superior running and then gets flight.  The old ability served you well getting there.

@Sletchman

The Infernalist's Gamebreaker is awesome. Just the ability to pick any spell once per scene without any spellpoint cost and a spellcasting check is nice. Since you have Dark Pact II anyway if you have the gamebreaker you can cast 2 different spells you don't know... awesome. I like versatility.

Undead as a type is awesome... but if I have to pick, Infernalist wins every time.

Sletchman covered this but I wanted to add that Dark Pact I and III both only require you to know a spell.  So you could use them together.