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Author Topic: How to Pin an opponent?  (Read 4098 times)
Crafty_Pat
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« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2012, 02:51:56 AM »

I would like to see something in the core book that says "this is how it works" though.

Well, it's likely we'd change Fantasy Craft here, but this is still good data for... other upcoming stuff. Smiley
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« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2012, 08:31:07 AM »

Now I'm curious. Anyone out there feel the constant, unavoidable possibility of an instant reversal from any position in a grapple is not a good idea? Inquiring designers want to know.

Well, much like Antilles I ran it as both parties are held or worse, but that's not all that big a deal.

Obviously, I like grapples that are very fluid with the advantaged side changing as the dice and bonuses dictate. I've never found it hard to manage or track and it's never kept people from using grapple in my games. It does mean that grapplign tends to be more for unarmed fighters and wrestlers or a matter of needing to capture or restrain someone then a 'just because' move.
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« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2012, 03:14:58 PM »

Like many others here, I’ve been running/using the grapple rules incorrectly – chiefly in the “Winner of the opposed check gets to apply a benefit” area. We also have worked out a shorthand "category system" that, upon review, also strays from the RAW. In specific, we’ve been playing grapples like this:

1.    Character A wants to grapple character B, who is adjacent. A declares a full action grapple, moves into B’s
       square, and both roll their grapple checks.

2.    If A wins, then both characters occupy that square, both become flat-footed, and B becomes held.

3.    If B wins, then A is pushed back into his original square and becomes flat-footed. Alternately, B can choose
       to continue the grapple, whereas both characters occupy his square, both become flat-footed, and A becomes
       held.

4.    During a grapple, a character is in one of three “grapple categories” – Grappled, Held, or Pinned. Some
       grapple benefits can only be applied to/by held opponents, some only to/by pinned. Moving the opponent “up”
       or “down” this list requires the use of a grapple benefit. (When initiating a grapple the winning character is, for
       all intents and purposes, forced to choose “opponent becomes held” as his grapple benefit.)

5.    While in a grapple, the only actions the character can attempt are the full action grapple check against his
       opponent, the Delay action (which typically results in eventual ‘passing’) or “appropriate” free actions.

6.    If during a grappling character’s initiative count, the character attempts the full action grapple check, then no
       matter which character’s initiative count it is, the winner of the opposed check may apply a grapple benefit. If
       the character won the opposed check with a critical success, then he may apply two grapple benefits, one
      after the other.

In summary, on our "house rules version" the three grapple categories are:

Grappled: You are in a grapple, you are flat-footed, and (at least) one other person also occupies your square. From this grapple category, as a grapple benefit, you may Break Free or cause to opponent to enter the next grapple category, that of being held, or apply one grapple benefit against a held opponent: Disarm, Handle Item, Injure, Sprawl, or Throw.

Held: In addition to the normal effects of being in the held condition (Fantasy Craft, page 213), if the opponent wins a full action grapple check against a character in the held grapple category he may either cause to opponent to enter the next grapple category, that of being pinned, or apply one of the following grapple benefits: Break Free, Disarm, Handle Item, Injure, Grapple Second Opponent, Move (5 ft step), Sprawl, or Throw. If a character who is currently in the held grapple category wins the check he may cause a grappled opponent to join him in the held category, move himself to the superior grappled category or apply one of the above grapple benefits.

Pinned: In addition to the normal effects of being in the pinned condition (Fantasy Craft, page 213), if the opponent wins a full action grapple check against a character in the pinned grapple category he may apply one of the following grapple benefits: Break Free, Disarm, Handle Item, Injure, Move (normal speed), Screaming Club, Sprawl, Throw or Use Opponent’s Weapon. If a character who is currently in the pinned grapple category wins the check he may only perform the Break Free grapple benefit (which moves his own grapple condition up to being held).
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 03:17:42 PM by Big_Jim » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2012, 03:52:12 PM »

Now I'm curious. Anyone out there feel the constant, unavoidable possibility of an instant reversal from any position in a grapple is not a good idea? Inquiring designers want to know.

IMHO as a grappler, I feel that the system having instant reversals is much more realistic and far more entertaining.
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« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2012, 04:02:41 PM »

Now I'm curious. Anyone out there feel the constant, unavoidable possibility of an instant reversal from any position in a grapple is not a good idea? Inquiring designers want to know.

I don't mind the idea of instant reversals, but it should take more than a simple grapple check to pull off pinned reversals.

If the participant is merely held, and not pinned by his opponent, I would have no problem with the held character either breaking free or reversing the hold on a successful Grapple check, rather than having to break free and then take another action to Grapple again on the following turn.

If the participant is already pinned, I don't think anything short of a Critical Success/Failure of the participants should allow a reversal.
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« Reply #50 on: May 08, 2012, 04:25:52 PM »


If the participant is merely held, and not pinned by his opponent, I would have no problem with the held character either breaking free or reversing the hold on a successful Grapple check, rather than having to break free and then take another action to Grapple again on the following turn.

If the participant is already pinned, I don't think anything short of a Critical Success/Failure of the participants should allow a reversal.

That's how it works in our "house version" (See three posts up.)
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« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2012, 05:24:59 PM »

Yea, I read that after I had replied.  Tongue

That's what I get for replying as I was getting caught up on the thread rather than reading all the posts and then replying.
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« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2012, 01:25:53 AM »

We also have worked out a shorthand "category system" that, upon review, also strays from the RAW. In specific, we’ve been playing grapples like this:
<snip>
In summary, on our "house rules version" the three grapple categories are:

Grappled: You are in a grapple, you are flat-footed, and (at least) one other person also occupies your square. From this grapple category, as a grapple benefit, you may Break Free or cause to opponent to enter the next grapple category, that of being held, or apply one grapple benefit against a held opponent: Disarm, Handle Item, Injure, Sprawl, or Throw.

Held: In addition to the normal effects of being in the held condition (Fantasy Craft, page 213), if the opponent wins a full action grapple check against a character in the held grapple category he may either cause to opponent to enter the next grapple category, that of being pinned, or apply one of the following grapple benefits: Break Free, Disarm, Handle Item, Injure, Grapple Second Opponent, Move (5 ft step), Sprawl, or Throw. If a character who is currently in the held grapple category wins the check he may cause a grappled opponent to join him in the held category, move himself to the superior grappled category or apply one of the above grapple benefits.

Pinned: In addition to the normal effects of being in the pinned condition (Fantasy Craft, page 213), if the opponent wins a full action grapple check against a character in the pinned grapple category he may apply one of the following grapple benefits: Break Free, Disarm, Handle Item, Injure, Move (normal speed), Screaming Club, Sprawl, Throw or Use Opponent’s Weapon. If a character who is currently in the pinned grapple category wins the check he may only perform the Break Free grapple benefit (which moves his own grapple condition up to being held).


Yes, this.  This is how I read the rules anyway so I'm good with this.
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« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2012, 05:05:46 AM »

Just out of curiosity... how would you handle someone getting creative with a pinned opponent, and trying something like dangling them over a fatal drop of some kind to force (a) them to give up information (browbeat check with a high incentive?) or (b) their ally/allies/minions to surrender while still midcombat (depending on the incentive the other characters have to keep said bloke alive, it might mean either ending combat and cutting to a browbeat check or simply getting a circumstantial bonsus on a threaten check, as I see it).
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« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2012, 06:27:56 AM »

Same way I would do it with guns.  If everyone is still struggling and there hasn't been some clear winner, things proceed as normal for combat, and you get some circumstantial benefit to the relevant intimidate (or whichever) checks.  On the other hand, if the fight is pretty much over and there is clearly one side or party that is coming out dominant, then I would cut things over to a terminal situation.  Again, with appropriate circumstantial bonuses to the relevant checks, but this time not bothering with the combat rules to determine the results of someone making good on their threat.
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« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2012, 01:23:38 PM »

Now I'm curious. Anyone out there feel the constant, unavoidable possibility of an instant reversal from any position in a grapple is not a good idea? Inquiring designers want to know.

I *really* like the idea that holds/pins could be reversed, but not on a simple success on a grapple check. Work the crit and/or feat systems for this. Maybe a feat (or feat chain) that allows for a reversal, with a crit allowing reversal of a pin.

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« Reply #56 on: July 30, 2012, 07:22:43 PM »

Now I'm curious. Anyone out there feel the constant, unavoidable possibility of an instant reversal from any position in a grapple is not a good idea? Inquiring designers want to know.

Except it's not instant reversal from any position. The common interpretation of the rule simply allows the formerly dominant participant to themselves become held or pinned.

This scene from Terminator 2 is a good example.

Round 1: T1000 decides to grapple T800 and wins the initial check; T800 is now held. The T800 fails his check, and the T1000 chooses to disarm.

Round 2: T1000 loses his check, and instead of breaking free, T800 choses to render T1000 held (the bit where he grabs his jacket). T800 wins his check and chooses to render T1000 pinned.

Round 3: T1000 loses his check, T800 chooses injure (1st wall slam). T800 wins his check and again chooses injure (2nd wall slam).

Round 4: T1000 wins check with a crit, becomes held and inflicts pinned on T800. T800 loses check, T1000 chooses injure.

Round 5: T1000 clearly has a grapple trick he brings into play, which allows him to bullrush a pinned opponent (throwing T800 through wall and leaving him sprawled and stunned, breaking the grapple.

Round 6: T1000 uses Charging Basics to shove T800 through glass and leave at a run. T800 repositions and goes to retrieve gun.


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« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2012, 09:10:36 PM »

Now I'm curious. Anyone out there feel the constant, unavoidable possibility of an instant reversal from any position in a grapple is not a good idea? Inquiring designers want to know.

Except it's not instant reversal from any position. The common interpretation of the rule simply allows the formerly dominant participant to themselves become held or pinned.

This scene from Terminator 2 is a good example.

Round 1: T1000 decides to grapple T800 and wins the initial check; T800 is now held. The T800 fails his check, and the T1000 chooses to disarm.

Round 2: T1000 loses his check, and instead of breaking free, T800 choses to render T1000 held (the bit where he grabs his jacket). T800 wins his check and chooses to render T1000 pinned.

Round 3: T1000 loses his check, T800 chooses injure (1st wall slam). T800 wins his check and again chooses injure (2nd wall slam).

Round 4: T1000 wins check with a crit, becomes held and inflicts pinned on T800. T800 loses check, T1000 chooses injure.

Round 5: T1000 clearly has a grapple trick he brings into play, which allows him to bullrush a pinned opponent (throwing T800 through wall and leaving him sprawled and stunned, breaking the grapple.

Round 6: T1000 uses Charging Basics to shove T800 through glass and leave at a run. T800 repositions and goes to retrieve gun.


It takes a terminator to get through 6 rounds in 10 seconds.
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« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2012, 09:28:26 PM »

There's a little dramatic editing, but the fight scene as seen in teh clip takes roughly the same 30 seconds from first grab to last reposition it does on paper
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« Reply #59 on: November 27, 2012, 01:09:51 PM »

Maybe pinning should be like Swallow is now, something that is only attainable on a critical success.  Maybe it could use a feat requirement.  All I know is I have had 2 scenes, once as a player and once as a GM, have the fun sucked right out of it because of Grappling.  It's not a system that, in its current form, I would miss if it was excised in its entirety.

Sudden thought: Pinning  rather than being an immediately open option after inflicting held is instead the result of a successful complex challenge, specials can spend AD to cancel out non-critical successes
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