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Author Topic: [Notebook] Mass(ter)craft 2nd ed: Getting the ball rolling  (Read 6739 times)
Blankbeard
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« Reply #75 on: May 14, 2012, 06:30:00 PM »

Guys, chill.  We can disagree without the raised voices I already hear.    Embarrassed

I'm not keen on BoA for the asari, but I'm not totally opposed.  I think there are better species adjustments that can offset the +7 Talent.

What about building human as a species, and giving everyone a talent?

You'd have to build all the species like specialties, avoiding setting speeds and abilities.   So you're essentially giving everyone 2 specialties, which is the Seer's 10th level ability.  I suspect that might have a few power issues Smiley  But maybe not.  

Personally, I'm not a fan of giving asari a talent but if they end up with one there are alternative takes I can use.

Speaking of specialties, here are a couple asari inspired ones.


Consort
What keeps them coming back is your insight.
[1] Bonus Feat: Mark
[1] Attribute Training: The lower of your Wisdom or Intelligence rises by one.
[2] Beguiling: When you taunt, you may instead fixate the target(s) on you for 1d6 rounds
[2] Celebrated: Your Legend rises by 2.
[1] Encouragement: With a 1 minute conversation, you grant one teammate a +1 morale bonus with saving throws.

Dancer
You're still spending your misspent youth.
[1] Bonus Feat: Fan Service
[1] Agile Defense: Your Defense rises by 1.
[1] Attribute Training: The lower of your Strength or Dexterity rises by one.
[1] Linguist: You gain two additional languages.
[2] Paired Skills: Whenever you gain a rank in Acrobatics, you gain a rank in Impress up to your normal limit.
[1] The Carousing Service is always available when you have at least Common Lodging.

Huntress
No one sees you coming, no one alive to see you leave.
Requirement: Asari, any biotic power
[1] Bonus Feat: Ghost Basics
[2] Decisive: You gain +5 on Inititive checks
[1] Headshot: You inflict +2 damage on standard characters when using firearms
[1] Hustle: You take exactly one point of damage per die of subual when making Athletics/Push Limit checks
[2] Sisters in Arms: You gain +2 +1 on Defense and Saves when adjacent to at least 2 characters of your species are within CQB.

Edit: MilitiaJim's suggestion
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 07:20:34 PM by Blankbeard » Logged
MilitiaJim
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« Reply #76 on: May 14, 2012, 06:37:49 PM »

Me likee.  Could Huntress also work for krogan scouts?  (I'm not sure if opening that "skill bonuses for doing something for decades" can of worms is a good idea.)

And I still think the "+2 adjacent" should be amended to "+1 in CQB range."
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"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)
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« Reply #77 on: May 14, 2012, 08:30:10 PM »

Me likee.  Could Huntress also work for krogan scouts?  (I'm not sure if opening that "skill bonuses for doing something for decades" can of worms is a good idea.)

And I still think the "+2 adjacent" should be amended to "+1 in CQB range."

Thanks and made the CQB change.  Are krogan scouts called out anywhere?  The only group I think of the the ones with Grunt in ME3.  If you want to use the huntress as a krogan scout, I see no reason not to if you think it fits.

Hmmm

Battlemaster
Shotgun? Biotics? Armor?  Your most valuable equipment is a quad of steel.
Requirements: Krogan, any biotic power
[1] Bonus Feat: Charging Basics
[1] Boomstick:  Your attacks with a shotgun do +2 damage to standard characters
[1] Crunch!: Your Strength based melee attacks do +1 damage
[2] Fast: Your ground speed rises by 10ft/3m
[1] Heroism: During dramatic scenes you gain a +1 bonus to all attack and skill checks.
[1] Shove: You gain the shove trick.

Scout
"Wait for Backup" doesn't translate well into Krogan.
[1] Bonus Feat: Ambush Basics
[2] Fireteam: You gain +1 on attack rolls when at least 2 characters of your species are within CQB.
[2] Harsh Beating: The DC of Fortitude saves due to subdual damage you inflict increases by 4.
[1] Heroism: During dramatic scenes you gain a +1 bonus to all attack and skill checks.
[1] No Whining: You take exactly 1 point per die when suffering subdual damge from any Athletics/Push LImit check.

I originally had Steady shot in there but I thought it might be too much with Fireteam and Heroism.
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MilitiaJim
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« Reply #78 on: May 14, 2012, 09:10:39 PM »

How come the Battlemaster only gets the +2 against standard characters with a shotgun, and not with all firearms?  Shouldn't the Battlemaster be at least as flexible as the Huntress?  Yes, the stereotypical krogan uses a shotgun, but Wrex and Grunt are both handy with an AR.
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"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)
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« Reply #79 on: May 14, 2012, 09:51:21 PM »

Yeah, it should be the whole category.   Or, you could drop crunch and just give them the 2 point ability which makes all attacks against standard characters do +2 damage. 

Which way sounds better?

Any ideas for Turian/Salarian evocative specialties?
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #80 on: May 14, 2012, 10:26:26 PM »

It also says that they spend the equivalent to any other character's entire career dedicating themselves to the study of killing things, so of course they're better, they're higher level. The idea that some 6th level human is on the same level an asari huntress who is a few hundred years old with several decade of killing under her belt is ridiculous.
By that logic, elves are also not on the same level as other FC races.  Probably Dwarves, Drakes, Unborn, and Rootwalkers too.  Maybe we should just give Asari 10 class levels to represent their centuries of experience, that none of the other races could possibly ever match.  But they still have Burden of Ages, so it's fine.

My point is that in order to operate on a level d20 playing field instead, say, going all Buffy the RPG on the problem, there are trade offs to be made. Slowing some methods of vitality regeneration is frankly the least onerous of them.


Quote
Or you know, the video games aren't d20 system, much less Mastercraft with it's vitality/wounds system. 

Duh!

Quote
So we have to adapt what we saw on screen to this system.  No one was difficult to heal, so BoA is not appropriate for any species. 

As already pointed out, a single dose of medigel restores a massively high amount of vitality

Quote
Asari are gifted biotics.

Biotically gifted, an important difference. Not all asari have biotic abilities but all those who do are good at it. Which is the elegance of Resolve as the key skill for biotic use.

Quote
Even Liara, the scientist type character, had biotic instead of tech powers.  What that means to us depends on how we handle biotics.  You are assuming that it will be similar to spells, with resolve as the key skill.  That assumption is groundless. 

No, you're the one who keeps bringing up spells. I'm positing it as more of a Jump-style check (you will always achieve a result) keyed to biotic proficiencies access to which is unlocked by a character option of some sort.

Quote
When we were still discussing it, no one agreed.  Then Glimm chimed in that he was mostly done with his version 2 and that was the end of that.  Now you're back to assuming that biotics will work like spells using resolve again.


Because until something else comes up -- and there's no particular guarantee that Glim's vision will get the nod -- it's as good a mechanic as any to be going on with. And if nothing else, it allows for non-biotic asari party girls (because Resolve is the party skill)

Quote
And, even if that is the way it works out, the Asari talents can make them good at Resolve. 

I assume you mean Specialties.

Quote
Or Asari species feats. 

Oh, so species feats can make them good at resolve but quicker to get their stuff together than average citizens?

Quote
Or, they could not have diverse.  Because really, if Asari get diverse, then so should Turians, and Quarians, and Salarians, and probably Krogans too.  Every species that Shepherd spent time around seemed to have members that were diverse and deep characters, rather than the typical racial caricatures that sci-fi and fantasy races usually are.

Turians are a rigid heirarchy, salarians entirely too selective in their breeding, Quarians facing the dangers of inbreeding, and krogans on the wrong end of a low birthrate dystopian warrior culture that has a habit of getting the people who want to reform it killed.

No other species has a cultural bug up its arse about using genetic randomisation based on every other species in the galaxy for their young, or the capacity to follow up on that desire.

(Though that does bring up the problem I have with humans needing diversity to be their hat just so they won't suck. Personally I think humans should just get a bunch of bonus AD as their racial benefit to represent our plucky spirit, non-humans grab their species, and everyone chooses a talent and specialty. But since that's not happening, access to talents is a worthwhile design tool)

How come the Battlemaster only gets the +2 against standard characters with a shotgun, and not with all firearms?  Shouldn't the Battlemaster be at least as flexible as the Huntress?  Yes, the stereotypical krogan uses a shotgun, but Wrex and Grunt are both handy with an AR.

Quoth the codex: "As the Codex details, the Battle Masters were officers of the krogan military. Tough, disciplined, well-armed, and biotically gifted, a single Battle Master is said to be an equal match to ten soldiers of any other species. Battle Masters regard killing as a science and focus on developing economy of motion which allow them to maximise the advantage gained from their incredible strength in battle; a single blow from a Battle Master is usually enough to kill or severely incapacitate any non-krogan. "

Battlemaster isn't a Specialty, it's the Krogan Masterclass.

Similarly, huntress reads more like an ExC than a specialty.
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« Reply #81 on: May 14, 2012, 11:47:51 PM »

Just some thoughts:

Aliens are affected differently by Medi-Gel: There is a fetchquest in ME3 to get a formula that will make it work better on them (Hanar and Drell, specifically).
The videogame abstracts that concept by just making it a cure all.  That is not a statment on efficacy or them "using too much".  It's so gamers don't have to monitor another thing.
If you make Medi-Gel heal "massively high amounts of vitality", BoA is no longer a penalty, and as such shouldn't return any points.
Point 1 doesn't mean I agree with BoA for Asari (or anyone else), I just felt it should be mentioned.  In fact I am entirely against Asari with BoA.
Battlemaster as a Krogan Masterclass is an excellent idea, given their power and rarity (and other factors).  I support it over a Specialty.

Finally, everyone needs to calm down a notch and recognise that they are wasting their time arguing about the Asari.  Building races whose cornerstone is "good at a subsystem" when you haven't built that subsystem is pointless.  Going on to argue about it is fucking stupid.  Period.  You are all better then that.  Finalise Biotics (or wait for Glim's dramatic reveal - which I still want him to send me for a non-ME project Sad), and then you will know how to build a race whose schtick is "good at biotics", anything else is a waste of time (and getting worked up over it is just silly).
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MilitiaJim
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« Reply #82 on: May 15, 2012, 12:54:27 AM »

(and getting worked up over it is just silly).
WHAAARRGRRBLLE!!!!1!!one!!!

Battlemaster does fit well as a Master Class.

Huntress as an Expert Class works as well.  A mix of Grunt and Raptor?  Or is Grunt too focused on heavier weapons?
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"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)
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« Reply #83 on: May 15, 2012, 02:11:40 AM »

I also wouldn't give Asari the Diverse benefit at all.  There's no real reason for it.

If your argument is that they breed with all other races to produce their daughters then stop for a moment and think about it.  They breed with all other races, yet only produce factory standard Asari who have no physical difference from other Asari.  A Krogan fathered Asari isn't bigger or stronger then Salarian-father Asari and the only difference is some use of slang and their style of speech - things that are based on how they are raised, not their genetics.  Nurture, not Nature.  So that argument just doesn't hold water.

If you have another reason why they and no one else should get a Talent, I'm all ears - but in the setting, they are really no more Diverse then Salarians, Krogan, Turians, or anyone else.
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MilitiaJim
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« Reply #84 on: May 15, 2012, 06:26:59 AM »

A Krogan fathered Asari isn't bigger or stronger then Salarian-father Asari and the only difference is some use of slang and their style of speech - things that are based on how they are raised, not their genetics.
I blame that on the game engine.  All the humans are the same size, not the normal 18" in height difference I see every day before I get to the office.  The few asari who know they are half krogan don't seem to have aggression issuues, but they can be a bit more aggressive.

Perhaps a ME specific version of FC's Sorcerer Specialty would fit?
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"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)
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« Reply #85 on: May 15, 2012, 07:25:19 AM »

Sure, it's partly the engine.  But the comics, the codex, the novels and even speech by characters in game make no mention of Asari having any physiological changes based on parenthood - no 4 eyes for Batarians, no water alergy for Drell, and no bone plates for Krogan (or any other combos you care to think of).  In fact, across media, they are the most homogeneous of the races.  Even the Salarians (chosen because they marry and breed based on genetic history and family lines) have notable examples of extreme genetic diversity - Tazzik stands almost as tall as a Krogan, and is heavily muscled.  I can't find a similar example for the Asari - it's an endless parade of 5'8 and 36-24-36 across all mention of them.

I believe that if they get talents, then everyone should (which in itself isn't actually a bad idea) - human species could have:

Human
Type: Medium Folk.
Base Speed: 30ft
Precocious Little Scamp:  You gain 2 additional starting Action Dice.
Presumptious Little Upstart:  You suffer a -10 reaction modifier when dealing with non-humans.

Convert any talents with 40ft speed to give +10ft and just gives other races minimal stat mods so they don't spiral out of control.  Easy.  That's just random, a more balanced package might be more desirable.
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Blankbeard
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« Reply #86 on: May 15, 2012, 09:44:52 AM »

Just some thoughts:

Aliens are affected differently by Medi-Gel: There is a fetchquest in ME3 to get a formula that will make it work better on them (Hanar and Drell, specifically).
The videogame abstracts that concept by just making it a cure all.  That is not a statment on efficacy or them "using too much".  It's so gamers don't have to monitor another thing.
If you make Medi-Gel heal "massively high amounts of vitality", BoA is no longer a penalty, and as such shouldn't return any points.
Point 1 doesn't mean I agree with BoA for Asari (or anyone else), I just felt it should be mentioned.  In fact I am entirely against Asari with BoA.
Battlemaster as a Krogan Masterclass is an excellent idea, given their power and rarity (and other factors).  I support it over a Specialty.

I have two problems with making things a master class.  First is the idea that you're removing the idea from the first nine levels of play.  A big draw of the Mass Effect universe (for me at least) is being on a team of galactic scale bruisers who solve outsized problems.   Shepard is the best of the best right at the start.  Wrex is a battlemaster when we first meet him.  Garrus is Dirty Harry with a beak.  Liara and Tali have prominent backgrounds and are quite capable of punching above their weight.  Kaiden and Ashley are the only truly obscure ones and that's forced on them by their role as killable romance options.  Even Kaiden is an unstable biotic heavy.

Joe the Plumber versus Reapers could be fun (and effective too, what with all the liquefied colonist the Reapers pump around) but I think playing the first Drell Spectre is going to be more common wish for a starting PC.  If it were me, I'd leave master classes out.

Secondly, there just isn't a lot of meat to huntresses, battlemasters, and the other NPC classes.  Having said all of this, I don't post things in an attempt to claim design space.  If someone else wants to write them up as master classes, more power to them.

On the specialties themselves, if you drop the biotic power requirement, the battlemaster specialty represents Grunt fairly well (maybe change the name to Powerhouse or Bruiser?).  The huntresses in game are also referred to as Commandos.  Pick one for the master class and use the other for the specialty.

Or ignore the specialties entirely.  It's all good.
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MilitiaJim
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« Reply #87 on: May 15, 2012, 10:25:57 AM »

I think Huntress is a more flavorful Specialty name.
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"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)
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« Reply #88 on: May 15, 2012, 12:08:13 PM »

I had been under the impression this was Glimmerat's rodeo, with the rest of us just thinking out loud in case any of it was useful to him.  Maybe that's not the case, and if so, Sletch is right and working out the subsystems needs to happen before we have any idea how species, feats, skills, specialties, or classes will interact with them.  I still think my ME powers as paths idea carries water, and I'll hammer it out and write something up for it, hopefully later today.

@Mister Anderson.  Don't do that, it's rude.  If you don't agree with my point, then respond to my point; don't pick out individual sentences and criticize them out of context.
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« Reply #89 on: May 15, 2012, 12:21:54 PM »

@Blankbeard: Honestly, I'm good either way.  I'm of the opinion that Shepard et al are all very high level from the start.  As you said - he's already the best humanity has to offer (which doesn't make me think of a level 1 Soldier).

That said though, I am always the first to say (particularly to my group) that character level =/= character status, so I'm kinda breaking my own creed by saying that Battlemaster should be a masterclass.  Honestly, I just loved the Legendary Race classes from Classic Fantasy, and the idea of a "Legendary Krogan" makes me all kinds of happy.  That Battlemaster you posted was great (so was the Scout, but I think that name is probably taken), so I'm just as happy to let it be as I am anything else.
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