Back to Crafty Games Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
August 30, 2014, 07:21:54 AM
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Welcome to the Crafty Games Forums!

Note to New Members: To combat spam, we have instituted new rules: you must post 5 replies to existing threads before you can create new threads.

+  Crafty Games Forum
|-+  Community
| |-+  License to Improvise
| | |-+  [Notebook] Mass(ter)craft 2nd ed: Getting the ball rolling
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 11 Go Down Print
Author Topic: [Notebook] Mass(ter)craft 2nd ed: Getting the ball rolling  (Read 7252 times)
MilitiaJim
Control
******
Posts: 4306



View Profile WWW
« Reply #60 on: May 13, 2012, 06:03:38 PM »

Medi-gel seems to work just fine on Liara...
Logged

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)
tfwfh
Operative
****
Posts: 443



View Profile
« Reply #61 on: May 13, 2012, 06:17:52 PM »

And Samara, and Morinth.
Logged

Who's the more foolish, the fool or tfwfh?
Mister Andersen
Control
******
Posts: 10679


I'm leaving for a destination I still don't know


View Profile
« Reply #62 on: May 13, 2012, 06:30:00 PM »

@Anderson: I've used that at -0.5pt (though with a different name).  Penalties are simply rated at lower cost in the system (often half or less in terms of absolute magnitude), so if the beneficial version is 1pt, the penalty version should be -0.5.

Ex: [-0.5] = -2 Appearance.  [1.0] = +1 Appearance.
[-0.5] = -2 Proficiencies.  [1.0] = +1 Proficiency.
Reviled (always on) vs Charming (1/Session and smaller modifier)

Bullrush: Being considered 1 size smaller grants the bigger opponent a bonus of +2 against you
Grapple: Being considered 1 size smaller grants the bigger opponent a bonus of +2 against you
Trample: You can now be trampled by an opponent 1 size category smaller (though in effect most folks with trample have also paid the extra point for improved stability to sllow them to squish medium folks anyways, so this is kinda a gimme)
Carrying capacity: you're looking at a minimum loss of 10 to 30 lb depending on category, which has a knock on effect to the gear you can use as well as special ability considerations.

I'd say that comes in at -1, though you could easily throw in trip vulnerability and remove 'resisting' from bullrush as well if you wanted to be on the safe side.
Logged

Mister Andersen
Control
******
Posts: 10679


I'm leaving for a destination I still don't know


View Profile
« Reply #63 on: May 13, 2012, 06:42:52 PM »

Quote from: MilitiaJim, tfwfh
Medi-gel seems to work just fine on Liara... And Samara, and Morinth.

All that means is Medigel has a high enough numerical benefit that the 50% penalty leaves enough left over to do the trick.  Wink

Though I'd point out the Liara at least routinely needs medical attention given she's really a glass canon, while Samara and even Morinth are sufficiently high level that they are just that much harder to hurt in the first place.
Logged

tfwfh
Operative
****
Posts: 443



View Profile
« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2012, 07:11:18 PM »

Um, is there some reason the Hanar shouldn't just be small?  It does exactly what you're talking about doing.  Easier to grapple, bullrush, and trample, reduced carrying capacity.  According to the mass effect wiki, each tentacle is strong enough to lift "a few hundred grams".  If you assume that means at least 500, then 2 tentacles can lift most small weapons.  If the assumption is that they will be using 2 tentacles to hold 1-handed weapons, that would also avoid having to deal with any many-armed shenanigans, since for most purposes they would effectively only have 2 tentacles.  And if you also assume that the indicated strength is referring to muscle strength (or however they move around), rather than skeletal strength (again, or whatever), you don't even have to worry about carrying capacity.  They'll just hold heavy objects under them, with their tentacles fully extended.  You would probably still want to include a strength penalty, possibly a large penalty.  But I think it gets the job done without having to invent new origin qualities.

Logged

Who's the more foolish, the fool or tfwfh?
tfwfh
Operative
****
Posts: 443



View Profile
« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2012, 07:17:37 PM »

Quote from: MilitiaJim, tfwfh
Medi-gel seems to work just fine on Liara... And Samara, and Morinth.

All that means is Medigel has a high enough numerical benefit that the 50% penalty leaves enough left over to do the trick.  Wink

Though I'd point out the Liara at least routinely needs medical attention given she's really a glass canon, while Samara and even Morinth are sufficiently high level that they are just that much harder to hurt in the first place.

How often Liara needs healing relative to other team members is indicative of her vp/wp total, not the rate at which it recovers.  Also, everyone is always the same level.  If Samara and Morinth are more durable, that's because they are more combat oriented classes, not because they're higher level.  If you assume that medi-gel is only 50% effective on asari, then what you're suggesting is that everyone else is using 2x as much as they need, because it only comes in one size of dose.  I find that to be absurd, especially given the attention all three games give to having to work to gather enough resources to complete the various final missions.
Logged

Who's the more foolish, the fool or tfwfh?
Mister Andersen
Control
******
Posts: 10679


I'm leaving for a destination I still don't know


View Profile
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2012, 07:54:40 PM »

Um, is there some reason the Hanar shouldn't just be small? 

They already ARE small; you should go back reread my post. Though for targeting purposes I could see a case for them to be considered Large

Quote
without having to invent new origin qualities.

Where is the fun on that?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 07:56:16 PM by Mister Andersen » Logged

Mister Andersen
Control
******
Posts: 10679


I'm leaving for a destination I still don't know


View Profile
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2012, 08:22:46 PM »

How often Liara needs healing relative to other team members is indicative of her vp/wp total, not the rate at which it recovers.  Also, everyone is always the same level.  If Samara and Morinth are more durable, that's because they are more combat oriented classes, not because they're higher level. 

Yeah, that's conceptually rubbish. Samara is a matriarch and a justicar. That pretty much puts her on the same threat level as the Hulk when he was breaking Harlem. She is at an absolute minimum level 10 when you meet her (Explorer 4/Justicar 5/Matriarch 1), and more realistically probably already topped out at level 20 given she's done nothing but kill folks and hunt Morinth for 400 years. Leveling her along with Shep is purely part of the single player experience so the NPC doesn't outshine the player, when more accurately it's like Shep's player rocking up to a LARP and recruiting Samara's long-time and thus higher level player to help out on her quest.

Quote
If you assume that medi-gel is only 50% effective on asari, then what you're suggesting is that everyone else is using 2x as much as they need, because it only comes in one size of dose.  I find that to be absurd, especially given the attention all three games give to having to work to gather enough resources to complete the various final missions.

Dosage efficacy =/= dosage quantity. After all, a single dose of medigel/application of the Unity ability completely restores the recipient to full health regardless of their level, condition, species, etc. In other words, that single dose is doing the same numerical good at 1st level as it is at 20th. Since the soldier is our high water mark, that means a single dose restores, at a minimum, 240 pts of vitality (12 pts/level), probably even more when you consider the average soldier would likely have at least a +1 Con mod.

Logged

Krensky
Control
******
Posts: 6997


WWTWD?


View Profile
« Reply #68 on: May 13, 2012, 09:20:10 PM »

Except that all the assari, single or multiplayer recover shields and health at the same rate as everyone else.

There's no indication that even matriarcs recover vitality or suffer from ennui compared to any other rate. Their tactics are indicative a a culture whose military is entirely composed of irregular special forces.

If they're weaker anywhere, it's stress considering the only severe case of ptsd show is an asari, Liara's breakdown regarding Jask, the crazy Eclipse founder, Samara's daughters, etc.
Logged

We can lick gravity, but sometimes the paperwork is overwhelming. - Werner von Braun
Right now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.
There's no upside in screwing with things you can't explain. - Captain Roy Montgomery
Mister Andersen
Control
******
Posts: 10679


I'm leaving for a destination I still don't know


View Profile
« Reply #69 on: May 13, 2012, 10:17:06 PM »

I'm really hard pressed to think of any representation of an elf, especially the angelic arsekicking combat monsters from LotR, who display the BoA drawback FC elves are saddled with, yet we all seem quite happy to live with them having it.

If people want faster vitality recovering asari, they can take a species feat or, say, th core ability to the Asari Commando ExC to that effect. Mass Effect as presented on screen isn't going to translate exactly to P&P (and especiall not d20) -- frex the unending cover-ignoring instakill of the grab melee attack from the game that a 1st level noob can pull off is never going to be anything except the benefit of a feat chain in mastercraft -- and Asari are far too conceptually suited for Diverse in a way few other species ever have been to give it up in order to remove the one single mechanical drawback on the books that treats them as the space elves they are.

Logged

Blankbeard
Handler
*****
Posts: 781



View Profile
« Reply #70 on: May 13, 2012, 11:05:18 PM »

More than just the theme of BoA not fitting, the mechanics don't fit either.  Asari are never presented as being slow or difficult to heal.

Also, I have to wonder how this came up.  I can't find any mention of burden of ages in this thread, except for this argument.

On page one there is a spoiler entitled "Thoughts on Races."  In it, Mister A posted his version of the mass effect races.  His asari uses burden of ages and has a talent. 

Sletchman:  At one time I think it was semi-officially stated that the ratio is 1/4, but of course with only half point resolutions it comes out the same in this case.

Even the examples given support the 4 to 1 between bonus and penalties.

I wasn't disagreeing with him, I was bringing up a semiofficial post that clarified the ratio.

Sletchman:  At one time I think it was semi-officially stated that the ratio is 1/4, but of course with only half point resolutions it comes out the same in this case.

Yeah, I recalled having read that but couldn't find the quote, so I just went with some examples to demonstrate my point.  I called this particular ability "Slight Build" (because I have an alternate use for "Frail").

It would be good if someone decided to write up a short section on creating custom talent/specialty options and included that.  I may do it myself sometime, after I finish hacking an origin style system onto Star Frontiers.  I'll probably end up trying to overhaul the entire system though.

And that works how exactly? Their tactics are precisely the sort that folks whose vitality takes longer to artificially refresh would employ. Again, BoA doesn't affect natural recovery rates for vitality, and doesn't affect wounds at all.

The codex specifically says they use their tactics because they have a small army of those who decide to spend their lives in the military, not because they have low endurance, fragility, susceptibility to wounds or anything else close to the mechanical effect of BoA.  The codex even states that one on one they are the equal or superior of anyone else. 

Asari are patient and take the long view. It fits them plenty fine.

Being patient doesn't mean that it takes longer for medicine to get you back on your feet.  Taking the long view doesn't cause your morale to be lifted less by a rousing speech.  Liara comes off as a glass cannon because she's a science nerd on a ship full of soldiers.  Mordin is much the same in ME2.

Burden of Ages fits elves because they are a long lived race in decline.  Usually there's an empire in the past and often they are the original mages, both now lost to shorter lived races that barely qualify as civilized.  They are a fading people whose time has passed and they know it.  Burden of Ages does a good job of representing that psychic burden.

Asari, on the other hand, are at the top of their game.  They, at least pre-reaper, dominate the galaxy.  They have the best technology, the biggest economy, freedom, few responsibilities, and the respect of the other races.  The galaxy is their playground and they know it.   Burden of Ages doesn't fit them at all.

I've said my piece on it now, and I'll go with one of the alternate takes on Asari.  I did think your general trend of keeping ability modifications to a minimum is a good idea for mass effect races.

Also, I want to play an asari poledancing assassin.

Logged
tfwfh
Operative
****
Posts: 443



View Profile
« Reply #71 on: May 13, 2012, 11:15:54 PM »

Asari.
   Type: Medium Folk (11, Reach 1). Your maximum wounds are equal your Constitution score.
   Attributes: No modifiers
   Base Speed: 9 m.
   [-0.5]Achilles Heel (Stress): You do not cope well with hardship.  Stress damage you take is doubled, etc.
   [2.0] Burden of Ages: Your metabolism is efficient, not fast. Any effect that cures or restores your vitality has only one half the normal effect (rounded up).
   [7.0] Diverse: Choose a Talent. You gain all features of that talent. Possessing a Talent does not change your species to "human".
   [1.0] Enlightened Resolve: Your maximum Resolve rank increases to your Career Level + 5. Only the highest bonus from any single enlightened ability may apply to each skill.
   [-0.5]Limited Proficiences: Your natural talent with Biotics makes conventional weapons redundant.  You begin play with 2 fewer proficiences, etc.
   [1.0] Natural Elegance: Your appearance modifier increases by +1.

Now they get to be diverse, and not fly in the face of 3 games and several novels and comics worth of established behavior.  I don't know why you're so sold on Biotics-as-spells-but-without-spell-points.  Regardless, you'll just have to add whatever makes them good at biotics to their Talents.
Logged

Who's the more foolish, the fool or tfwfh?
Mister Andersen
Control
******
Posts: 10679


I'm leaving for a destination I still don't know


View Profile
« Reply #72 on: May 14, 2012, 03:04:53 AM »

[
And that works how exactly? Their tactics are precisely the sort that folks whose vitality takes longer to artificially refresh would employ. Again, BoA doesn't affect natural recovery rates for vitality, and doesn't affect wounds at all.

The codex specifically says they use their tactics because they have a small army of those who decide to spend their lives in the military, not because they have low endurance, fragility, susceptibility to wounds or anything else close to the mechanical effect of BoA.  The codex even states that one on one they are the equal or superior of anyone else. 

It also says that they spend the equivalent to any other character's entire career dedicating themselves to the study of killing things, so of course they're better, they're higher level. The idea that some 6th level human is on the same level an asari huntress who is a few hundred years old with several decade of killing under her belt is ridiculous.

You're also interpreting BoA wrong: it has nothing to do with any of those qualities. At all. An asari soldier is just as butch as a human soldier

Asari.
   Type: Medium Folk (11, Reach 1). Your maximum wounds are equal your Constitution score.
   Attributes: No modifiers
   Base Speed: 9 m.
   [-0.5]Achilles Heel (Stress): You do not cope well with hardship.  Stress damage you take is doubled, etc.
   [2.0] Burden of Ages: Your metabolism is efficient, not fast. Any effect that cures or restores your vitality has only one half the normal effect (rounded up).
   [7.0] Diverse: Choose a Talent. You gain all features of that talent. Possessing a Talent does not change your species to "human".
   [1.0] Enlightened Resolve: Your maximum Resolve rank increases to your Career Level + 5. Only the highest bonus from any single enlightened ability may apply to each skill.
   [-0.5]Limited Proficiences: Your natural talent with Biotics makes conventional weapons redundant.  You begin play with 2 fewer proficiences, etc.
   [1.0] Natural Elegance: Your appearance modifier increases by +1.

Now they get to be diverse, and not fly in the face of 3 games and several novels and comics worth of established behavior.  I don't know why you're so sold on Biotics-as-spells-but-without-spell-points.  Regardless, you'll just have to add whatever makes them good at biotics to their Talents.

Sorry, I don't buy either of those at all: they are to me even more preposterous and out of place than you seem to feel BoA is. It also completely fails to address their biotic supremecy in any meaningful fashion
Logged

tfwfh
Operative
****
Posts: 443



View Profile
« Reply #73 on: May 14, 2012, 10:53:37 AM »

It also says that they spend the equivalent to any other character's entire career dedicating themselves to the study of killing things, so of course they're better, they're higher level. The idea that some 6th level human is on the same level an asari huntress who is a few hundred years old with several decade of killing under her belt is ridiculous.
By that logic, elves are also not on the same level as other FC races.  Probably Dwarves, Drakes, Unborn, and Rootwalkers too.  Maybe we should just give Asari 10 class levels to represent their centuries of experience, that none of the other races could possibly ever match.  But they still have Burden of Ages, so it's fine.

Quote from: Mister Anderson
Asari.
...
Now they get to be diverse, and not fly in the face of 3 games and several novels and comics worth of established behavior.  I don't know why you're so sold on Biotics-as-spells-but-without-spell-points.  Regardless, you'll just have to add whatever makes them good at biotics to their Talents.

Sorry, I don't buy either of those at all: they are to me even more preposterous and out of place than you seem to feel BoA is. It also completely fails to address their biotic supremecy in any meaningful fashion
Fine.  The Asari are the only sidekicks who ever had any trouble dealing with things, and none of them was a soldier style character with unlimited proficiencies, but it certainly makes more sense for them to heal slower, because everyone just uses a hundred times more medi-gel than they need to.  They'll just take the long view, so that explains that.

Or you know, the video games aren't d20 system, much less Mastercraft with it's vitality/wounds system.  So we have to adapt what we saw on screen to this system.  No one was difficult to heal, so BoA is not appropriate for any species.  Asari are gifted biotics.  Even Liara, the scientist type character, had biotic instead of tech powers.  What that means to us depends on how we handle biotics.  You are assuming that it will be similar to spells, with resolve as the key skill.  That assumption is groundless.  When we were still discussing it, no one agreed.  Then Glimm chimed in that he was mostly done with his version 2 and that was the end of that.  Now you're back to assuming that biotics will work like spells using resolve again.  And, even if that is the way it works out, the Asari talents can make them good at Resolve.  Or Asari species feats.  Or, they could not have diverse.  Because really, if Asari get diverse, then so should Turians, and Quarians, and Salarians, and probably Krogans too.  Every species that Shepherd spent time around seemed to have members that were diverse and deep characters, rather than the typical racial caricatures that sci-fi and fantasy races usually are.
Logged

Who's the more foolish, the fool or tfwfh?
MilitiaJim
Control
******
Posts: 4306



View Profile WWW
« Reply #74 on: May 14, 2012, 02:34:40 PM »

Guys, chill.  We can disagree without the raised voices I already hear.    Embarrassed

I'm not keen on BoA for the asari, but I'm not totally opposed.  I think there are better species adjustments that can offset the +7 Talent.

What about building human as a species, and giving everyone a talent?
Logged

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 11 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!