Having It All or: Not Hijacking the Priorities Thread

[Jake]

Why can't we have both?  I know it seems contradictory, but I think it's not only very possible, but fairly easy.

How it will work in my mind:
We get to pick from a bunch of gear bundles.  A a hypothetical "combat bundle" contains:
M16 w/ 4x Standard (30 round) mags (FMJ Ammo) or 2x Beta Mags
M203 underbarrel attachment, w/ 5 Grenades (players choice, from list below bundle)
Class IV Duty Vest
Fatigues
Carry case for weapons and ammo

Give bundles a cost, based on what's in them.  Character wealth determines "gear points" (a static figure, not caliber based).  At the end of the lists you can include a "Make Your Own Bundle" option, which allows the players to flip back to the gear stats list and build from that list (ala Spycraft) with each item having an individual cost (again, not caliber based).  Mission Caliber can instead determine bonus gear points (which means an organised player can pre-spend their own gear picks and just add a couple items based on the requirements of the mission).

You get the bundles for speedy gearing - the hacker grabs an ELINT bundle (Laptop, Bugs, etc) and the Soldier grabs a combat bundle and you deploy.  Takes a couple minutes (and can take almost no time if they pre-pick).  For the gun bunnies they can change their combat pack to have something "better" then an M16 and go with an M110 because they want increased range and the increased punch of a 7.62 round.

For freelance games you have a cash cost in the gear table right with the item (so you have Cost heading with 1/$500 - gear points price for custom bundles / cash cost).  Still works for classes/feats with "freebie" picks.  Bug Basics gives bugs with a cal = 1/3 your career level?  Replace Cal with Cost.

Sletch said what I was thinking, perhaps better than I can. Taking bundles out of the hands of the GC and putting them into the players would really help. Most of the players I know fall into 2 categories:

Planners: These players have a pieces of paper with lines labeled 1-20 representing each career level. They know what they're character is going to look like at any given level, starting a week before the campaign begins.

Drifters: These players know what Expert class they want to take and are mindful of they prerequisites they need but they aren't mapping anything out.

Sletch's suggestion fits right into this. Planners will have a dozen different bundles sitting around as needed. Drifters will grab what they need from the book as needed. A few extra picks laying about based on TL to round things out when players decided they need a bit of something specific. Planning time goes to planning the op and playing the game instead of cross checking tables.

[Sletchman]

Probably not a bad idea to put this into it's own thread - I mostly put my comment because I figure even with his currently super busy schedule, Pat will be keeping an eye on that thread (and I honestly believe that 3rd can support both styles of play and player - it doesn't have to be an "OR").

The other thing I was thinking is with a Gear Point system you don't have to even have 100% of one style (if the individual player doesn't want to).  Yes, you will have the guys who go "ELINT Bundle, Security Bundle, and done', but you can also service the guys who want to go "Security Bundle, and a Laptop, Bug Sweeper and Lockpick Kit" - they can shake out as the same total cost, but have different contents for those who want to go shopping in the gear chapter.  Neither is better, they're just different and (in my mind) equally valid play styles.  I'd probably put a discount into pre-made bundles if I was writing the rules (because their inheriant inflexibility does slightly reduce utility), but it probably isn't necessary or anything.

This style of gearing up also supports a simple campaign quality that takes the choice out of the player's hands (or even severely limits it) - a game where they get given specific gear from their agency / benefactor / gang and that's what they have to work with.

You'd also want build it right into the existing framework - so that the Lifestyle line on the chart becomes either Gear Points or Prudence/Panache, depending on campaign qualities.  Just so that the game supports both "Agency Backed" and "Freelancer" style play (no point in getting one method of gearing right if the other fails).

[MilitiaJim]

This idea is GREAT.  Maybe we should throw a few of these together?

I would offer a few combat bundles, based mostly on a caliber/exposure "matrix."   Something like:
COMBAT:  Mk 48 LMG w/Iron man backpack
Subtle:  UMP 45 w/supressor, USP 45 OR  P90, FiveSeven,
Discreet:  Mk23, [other very quiet weapon], a couple armor mods
Old School:  M1928 Thompson SMG, M1911A1
Police Impersonation:  MP5, 9mm sidearm

Every kit should have three or four grenades and a melee weapon of the players choice.

[FWIW, I'm generally a Drifter until I get set loose in the armory.]

[Sletchman]

This idea is GREAT.

Thanks man.  It's something I've been toying with for my Cyberpunk game (and is heavily based off the Stargate rules, which I really dug - it's easy to build of a solid foundation).  Of course it'll come down to what the players want to do (I was consider having them be corporate security wage-slaves) - but I haven't had a proper sit down and talk with them yet (because they might decide to be shadowrunners who live one paycheck to the next).

I would offer a few combat bundles, based mostly on a caliber/exposure "matrix."

Fantastic idea.  I really like the idea of basing it on exposure levels.  Your sample bundles look really good too.  And that Ironman backpack is amazing (I filed that one away for later reference).

Every kit should have three or four grenades and a melee weapon of the players choice.

I'd go 2 grenades with an easy method to add more.  So snipers can get 2 different coloured smoke, and breach teams can get flash bangs and add a few frags if they want with ease.  It also means that bundles with less need for grenades can have other toys instead.

Totally agree about a melee weapon - in spycraft I've allowed people to take (most) melee weapons as common items (against the rules I know, but all soldiers I know have a combat knife).

[Crafty_Pat]

Probably not a bad idea to put this into it's own thread - I mostly put my comment because I figure even with his currently super busy schedule, Pat will be keeping an eye on that thread (and I honestly believe that 3rd can support both styles of play and player - it doesn't have to be an "OR").

I largely agree - that it doesn't have to be an either/or situation - but for the purposes of the discussion it's imperative to narrow options, if only to figure out exactly where folks' most vital preferences reside. Middle grounds and compromise may be great for end results but they're virtually useless as guideposts during design.

[Sletchman]

@Pat: That's very true (and really, a poll with 13 options is in no way as beneficial for developing clear goals as a choice between 2 is).  I must be the quintessential pain the ass customer for you guys - when asked if I'd like A or B my answer is almost always C...



At the topic on hand.  I was thinking some more about this while preparing my lunch, and it's easy to seperate it by campaign quality.  Quick and dirty versions follow (you'd obvious expand the text dramatically in a book).

Freelance: Lifestyle is seperated into Panache and Prudence.  Characters purchase gear using their private currency (which may be $, €, Creds, or something entirely different depending on your setting).

Faction: Lifestyle is seperated into Standing and [SOMETHING].  Standing represents your status within your organisation, and determines how much important equipment your organisation is willing to let you requisition for missions you undertake on their behalf (Ref. Table [XX] for Gear Points).  [SOMETHING] represents your own private holdings, and determines how much currency you can generate from your own holdings (for non-agency approved uses) as well as your personal apperance.

Just thinking out loud here...

So, Opinions?

EDIT: I'm not satisfied with "Wealth" as the chart stastic because it implies you have, well, wealth.  Someone who has invested all of this statistic into company standing (and thus their gear) probably won't have any actual "wealth" to speak of.  So I changed it to Lifestyle, which means less changes from FC core text (which is good because the system works for it to - a City Guardsmen bundle can have partial Leather, a Shortsword and some Manacles or whatever, a Guild Mage one can have a Spell Kit and some other gear) and makes more sense as a word.

EDIT2: Perhaps [SOMETHING] = Assets?

[tfwfh]

I sort of like the idea of bundles.  I recall them with fondness from classic.  But I don't want them to replace the entire gear selection process.  Here's what I've been doing recently.  First, my game is using stockpile, which does somewhat cut down on the per-mission gearing up time, because the picks are consistent from mission to mission, so most of a character's gear remains unchanged.  Second is to get rid of request checks completely.  If characters don't choose all of their gear during the mission briefing, they can make the rest of their choices later without having to spend action dice or make any checks, they just have to wait for it to arrive.  Lastly (and this I've only started doing recently so I don't have much data for it) I've replaced the original request checks with a new system.  Under this system, the characters can spend an action die to request any item of up to the current mission caliber and just get it automatically.  I did this largely to reintroduce some measure of the importance of mission caliber, which tends to get lost under the stockpile system.

[Sletchman]

I like the idea of removing Request checks - you're down an item anyway, so in addition you get to be down an action die?  Doesn't seem fair to me.  I also like your new version of request checks, sounds like a very cool idea.

One thing to keep in mind is this idea isn't necessarily a replacement for the entire process - my intent is to work alongside the existing process.  So while you can grab 2 bundles and move out, you can also grab all your gear independantly (and what is done will depend on the player, the setting and the team in question).  That's not really clear from the text so far, so I apologise for not making it so.

Example:
PC1 has 5 Gear Points.  He buys a Heavy Combat Bundle (Mk48 LMG, Ironman Backpack, Kevlar Vest, 2 Frag Grenades) for 5GP.
PC2 has 5 Gear Points.  He buys an M110 Sniper Rifle (2GP), a Kevlar Vest (1GP), 2 Smoke Grenades (1GP) and a Rugged Tablet (1GP).
_{Note: These numbers are a total asspull.}

PC1 isn't a gun/stat bunny - he wants some gear for his soldier and a machine gun, some armour and some frags looks good.  Done deal.  PC2 wants to pick which rifle he gets (as an Ex-Army Sniper character he goes with the M110), and wants some Smoke for signals.  He also thinks a rugged tablet will be useful to his character.  These are both Soldier examples, more because it illustrates my point then any other reason (the same principle applies to 2 Hackers, or 2 Wheelman or any other characters).

I'm more like PC2, but most the guys I game with are far more PC1.  The goal is to make the gearing up phase easy for everyone - gunbunny/shopper or not.  Hope that clears it up a little.

[tfwfh]

This does sound good.  And I love that you're talking in terms of points, rather than picks.  I loved budget/gadget points, and I kind of hate gear picks.  Still, I think it's probably more productive to work within the system we already have, rather than making stuff up that would have to be awkwardly shoehorned into both the current system and probably SC3 when it's eventually available.  Unless you also intend to create some method of converting picks to points.  If that's on the table though, I'm all for helping with it.

[Sletchman]

I am thinking about ways to convert picks to points at the moment.  I have a couple of ideas, but nothing concrete so far (or even easy - and ease has to be at the core, since it's the whole point).  I'll have a while to think about it while making my 2 hour commute to my evening of Spycraft (XCOM).  I'll also have a chat with the group before / after the game for more input.  My current thinking should work both SC2 and FC.  There's also a few things that put a wrinkle in it - Gear Prep (and it's ilk) being the big one (vehicles make me nervous too).  If you (or anyone) has thoughts on converting picks to points I'm all ears.

Also, unfortunately, it's gonna be impossible to make something that'll be forwards compatible since we can't even guess at how SC3's gear rules will turn out (and by the survey thread it looks like not even the Crafty guys have settled on a final "in stone" descision for it).  So anything might be utterly invalidated in a (hopefully) fairly short time.  *cough* Unless of course Pat and Alex like how this shakes out so much that they decide to design and utilise a strangely similar system... Just sayin'... *cough*

[tfwfh]

That's a really strange cough you've got there.  You should have that looked at.

Anyway, for converting picks to points, my initial thought was to use pick conversion as a guide.  That is, the ability to convert a pick of some caliber to 2 picks at -2 caliber.  I thought to make caliber I picks worth 1 point, and caliber II worth 2 points, but that results in the very strange situation that caliber II and III picks are both worth 2 points, and caliber IV and V are both worth 4.  So, I corrected that by making Caliber I picks worth 2 points, and Caliber II worth 3 points.

The result:

Caliber I	2 points
Caliber II	3 points
Caliber III	4 points (double Caliber I)
Caliber IV	6 points (double Caliber II
Caliber V	8 points (double Caliber III)

Which is all well and good for the gear tables, but I'm not sure how it interacts with character gear picks.  Maybe rely on Stockpile or Cash n Carry to convert from mission gear to calibers?  Or maybe just use possession score to determine available gear points?

[Mister Andersen]

Why even bother with caliber? Why not grossly simplify it as "You can have X items of gear of your choice, subject to GC approval

[Crafty_Pat]

@Pat: That's very true (and really, a poll with 13 options is in no way as beneficial for developing clear goals as a choice between 2 is).  I must be the quintessential pain the ass customer for you guys - when asked if I'd like A or B my answer is almost always C...

Well, I wasn't gonna say anything but...

[Jake]

You'd also want build it right into the existing framework - so that the Lifestyle line on the chart becomes either Gear Points or Prudence/Panache, depending on campaign qualities.  Just so that the game supports both "Agency Backed" and "Freelancer" style play (no point in getting one method of gearing right if the other fails).

Instead of being under Lifestyle, I think this system would have to go under the Gear/Legend line. Otherwise I'm with you.

[Sletchman]

Why even bother with caliber? Why not grossly simplify it as "You can have X items of gear of your choice, subject to GC approval

Since I'm honestly not sure which "Caliber" you are referring to (the game uses the word entirely too many times).

Mission Caliber:
I still think that the "mission caliber" should change the level of agency backing you get (it just seems thematically appropriate).  Something like:

Menace: After the Intel phase of the mission, you gain a number of bonus Gear Points equal to the mission's menace.  These may be spent at the end of the Intel phase, or kept in reserve to be used during the mission to aquire additional required gear.  If the mission increases in menace you gain a number of Reserve Points equal to the adjustment.  For a mission that begins in media res, you gain a number of Reserve Points equal to the menace.

I used Menace in favour of Caliber to keep it the same as FC's terminology, plus I like it more then Caliber (because the word Caliber is too common in SC, plus it makes me think of bullet diametre).

Gear Pick Caliber:
I somewhat agree.  I do think that some items will have a higher impact on the game, and some things (especially things with grades / PRs) should cost a varying amount.  Most items should cost exactly 1 gear point though - in my mind, with a few exceptions, a rifle is a rifle in terms of "impact on the mission".  Which means that largely the system is all about "You can have X items of your choice" - just a couple count as two is all.

-------
Just thinking out loud though.  I'm also not knocking your idea tfwfh - I think every idea is equally valid and all need consideration.  I just think that, largely, a rifle is a rifle and a handgun is a handgun (with just a small handful of notable exceptions).

@Jake:  I think that's a very valid idea (and possibility).  I didn't consider it previously because I'm such an enormous fan of Renown and it's subsystems (and Legend just goes with it in my mind).  I also mostly have a thing in my head where Lifestyle = Wealth, and Wealth = Gear, so lets build it from there.  So you have given me something to really think about.  Cheers.