Poll

If you were *forced* to choose between only two options for gearing up in an RPG, which would you choose?

I like it quick and dirty (less time choosing gear, but also fewer options)
28 (62.2%)
I like shopping (complete freedom, but also tons of prep time)
17 (37.8%)

Total Members Voted: 42

Voting closed: June 02, 2012, 06:17:54 AM

Author Topic: Priorities, Priorities: Gearing Up (Time vs. Freedom)  (Read 5791 times)

mathey

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Re: Priorities, Priorities: Gearing Up (Time vs. Freedom)
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2012, 10:52:03 AM »
Surprise, I voted for Quick and Dirty!

I'd also argue that for most of my players, complete freedom is more like complete confusion - they just don't bother to read detailed gear rules or the descriptions for the various tags the tables tend to be littered with. That's not just with Crafty games; same experience with D&D, Gumshoe...even Mutants and Masterminds, which has some of the simplest gear rules evar! The one game I played where people agonized over gear (I wasn't DM) was a Pathfinder adventure path in which one snotty player dictated what we do with any and all items we picked up ("sell this so I can get this because we NEED it..." etc.) - and while it spared the rest of us having to read entire books of boring tables, it was miserable.

TheTSKoala

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Re: Priorities, Priorities: Gearing Up (Time vs. Freedom)
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2012, 10:52:11 AM »
Okay.. while I'm standing by my vote.. I just want to clarify.  What is LOTS?  Something to the point of game breaking 45 seconds for Dirty or 7 hours for ultimate freedom or.. something closer to 1 min for dirty vs. 20 min for options?

YMMV, but in my games complete freedom tends to mean you spend about half of every session on planning and gearing up.

This is not to say that I prefer to play this way - only that unless I step in and force players to make choices more quickly than they would naturally, it winds up a 50/50 split.

Feel free to cut this comment to its own thread as I don't want to derail too far.  But isn't the group's propensity to debate gear picks more a result of the party than it is of the system?  While SC2's system was robust and allowed many options, you could still get it together without going the 50/50 time table by nudging their debates.  

Crafty_Pat

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Re: Priorities, Priorities: Gearing Up (Time vs. Freedom)
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2012, 11:03:35 AM »
...isn't the group's propensity to debate gear picks more a result of the party than it is of the system?  While SC2's system was robust and allowed many options, you could still get it together without going the 50/50 time table by nudging their debates.  

Not in my experience. Admittedly, the vast majority of my Spycraft experience comes from running LSpy, but still... It happened just as often in Classic as it did in 2.0, with the only difference being how much people griped about book referencing.
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TheTSKoala

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Re: Priorities, Priorities: Gearing Up (Time vs. Freedom)
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2012, 11:05:59 AM »
Okay.  We'll chalk that up to YMMV then!  I've had some success with prodding the group into 'quicker' (re: faster than 50/50.. but still some solid time) in gear picks.  I basically just go with "Just when you thought you had all the answers..."

Agent 333

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Re: Priorities, Priorities: Gearing Up (Time vs. Freedom)
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2012, 11:45:40 AM »
Quick and DIRTY. The more time the players focus on gear, the more important they expect all those choices to be, when in practice it doesn't matter too much if your 9mm has a 20ft range increment and 12 bullets or a 25ft increment and 10 bullets.
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Re: Priorities, Priorities: Gearing Up (Time vs. Freedom)
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2012, 12:35:55 PM »
Tough choice to make, Pat.

I am a gunbunny, a shopper and a borderline obsessive compulsive (which translates to a bit of a stats and detail whore).  I am the textbook guy for the second option.  However, I'd say my GMing vs Playing ratio is about 10:1 (or even higher), so what I want really doesn't mean shit.  I also know that most of my group ends up asking me what they should take on a mission.  Which means speed and (more importantly) ease has to be my priority, because it's what my group needs more then it is what I need.  Damn I'm selfless, aren't I?



Now, I know you said "Only these two options", so the following breaks your rules (and I completely understand your reasoning, but I think it's of value to the topic at hand).
To avoid cluttering the thread: Why Can't We Have Both?
Why can't we have both?  I know it seems contradictory, but I think it's not only very possible, but fairly easy.

How it will work in my mind:
We get to pick from a bunch of gear bundles.  A a hypothetical "combat bundle" contains:
M16 w/ 4x Standard (30 round) mags (FMJ Ammo) or 2x Beta Mags
M203 underbarrel attachment, w/ 5 Grenades (players choice, from list below bundle)
Class IV Duty Vest
Fatigues
Carry case for weapons and ammo

Give bundles a cost, based on what's in them.  Character wealth determines "gear points" (a static figure, not caliber based).  At the end of the lists you can include a "Make Your Own Bundle" option, which allows the players to flip back to the gear stats list and build from that list (ala Spycraft) with each item having an individual cost (again, not caliber based).  Mission Caliber can instead determine bonus gear points (which means an organised player can pre-spend their own gear picks and just add a couple items based on the requirements of the mission).

You get the bundles for speedy gearing - the hacker grabs an ELINT bundle (Laptop, Bugs, etc) and the Soldier grabs a combat bundle and you deploy.  Takes a couple minutes (and can take almost no time if they pre-pick).  For the gun bunnies they can change their combat pack to have something "better" then an M16 and go with an M110 because they want increased range and the increased punch of a 7.62 round.

For freelance games you have a cash cost in the gear table right with the item (so you have Cost heading with 1/$500 - gear points price for custom bundles / cash cost).  Still works for classes/feats with "freebie" picks.  Bug Basics gives bugs with a cal = 1/3 your career level?  Replace Cal with Cost.

Best of both worlds, right?

Goodlun

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Re: Priorities, Priorities: Gearing Up (Time vs. Freedom)
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2012, 12:43:42 PM »
I love having a ton of things to choice through and to be able to shop and its great thing to do before coming to the game table.  At the table though I just don't want to spend hardly any time on it.  I rather players focus on planning the op.  So I guess quick and dirty for me.  Having a good relationship with your group that they will have access to the necessary and cool equipment (unless not having access is plot specific) when they need it solves a lot of problems.  I don't see the point in ruining an adventure if someone should have brought night vision goggles, the adventure was  written with the expectation of them having them, so making sure that they end up in everyone's ruck sack even if they didn't necessarily pick them isn't a bad thing. 
Just a wacky thought I just had but I wouldn't even mind seeing a gear system that sort of works like the wealth system here roll to see if your character had the for site to bring his duct tape. 

Bill Whitmore

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Re: Priorities, Priorities: Gearing Up (Time vs. Freedom)
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2012, 01:36:39 PM »
  • Only mods can see the voting results, which is intentional. We would appreciate it if the mods would not reveal the results. Thanks! :)

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LordKruelos

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Re: Priorities, Priorities: Gearing Up (Time vs. Freedom)
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2012, 02:31:45 PM »
The only solution I had as a player in LSpy to this was to generate a list of preferred gear based off of each Caliber for my Gear choices. It made gearing up faster usually by half the time.


This is what I tend to do as well, and I'd leave the full range of options open for between-game perusal. I really liked the bundles from 1.0 in terms of a time-saver/thematic gear approach.

Tegyrius

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Re: Priorities, Priorities: Gearing Up (Time vs. Freedom)
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2012, 02:36:59 PM »
The only solution I had as a player in LSpy to this was to generate a list of preferred gear based off of each Caliber for my Gear choices. It made gearing up faster usually by half the time.

This.  I vastly prefer more options, so long as the system supports a certain amount of pre-staged work that can be done before or between sessions.

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Andy-C

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Re: Priorities, Priorities: Gearing Up (Time vs. Freedom)
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2012, 03:23:42 PM »
This is what I tend to do as well, and I'd leave the full range of options open for between-game perusal. I really liked the bundles from 1.0 in terms of a time-saver/thematic gear approach.

Seconded. Bundles were great, and it shouldn't be a stretch to accommodate both mission-based equipment bundles for grab-and-go and more detailed gearing for GCs, players, and groups that prefer that option.
The above may be conjecture, deliberate paraphrase, or outright bullshit.

ahzad

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Re: Priorities, Priorities: Gearing Up (Time vs. Freedom)
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2012, 04:46:34 PM »
i opted for quick and dirty, while I myself prefer more options, as the GM 90% of the time we just don't have 6-8 hours to play liked we used to, stupid real life  >:( so my games are around the 4 hour mark and we (meaning my group of players) would like to maximize our table top with story and action, not gearing up. 
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Re: Priorities, Priorities: Gearing Up (Time vs. Freedom)
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2012, 05:18:31 PM »
I chose the shopping option.  As a player, I loves me some shopping.  As a GM, it's easily the most boring part of the session, though.  Still, if I have to choose one or the other, I'll choose having options and freedom and shopping, because it's easier to speed up the gearing up phase than it is to add new options for gear.
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Crafty_Pat

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Re: Priorities, Priorities: Gearing Up (Time vs. Freedom)
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2012, 05:23:36 PM »
  • Only mods can see the voting results, which is intentional. We would appreciate it if the mods would not reveal the results. Thanks! :)

Crap, I'm sorry.  I did not realize that.   :-[

'sall good. Just pointin' it out. :)
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spinningdice

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Re: Priorities, Priorities: Gearing Up (Time vs. Freedom)
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2012, 05:21:35 PM »
I may be in the minority but I find gearing up tedious, I'd rather have a handful of options, than a bucket-load.
And maybe it comes through never having held one, but to me if you have an example of each type of gun (i.e. revolver, pistol, rifle etc) and a system of mods/upgrades, I can't see the point in having much more.
You can always add a gear-book later, or rely on the fan-base to create a bigger catalogue later.