Let's talk Brains in Jars.

[Sletchman]

So, I've got an odd concept here that I'm trying to get my head around mechanics for.  A brain in a jar.

Depending on your campaign this could be:
• One of CP2020 or Shadowrun's full conversion cyborgs - a (literal) brain in a jar that can pilot various mechanical bodies.
• An Artificial Intelligence that can port itself across to a new mechanical host body, based on the needs of the mission.
• A magical entity, bound to a control object that can animate (and pilot) steamjacks.
• The ghost of a long dead spellcaster, artificially extending his life by trapping his spirit and using it to control Golems.
• Those dudes from the Dune books (machine crusade) that a mate just reminded me of.

What I can't quite figure out is a set of mechanics that are both balanced and fit the concept properly.  My thinking went as follows:
1) Just use Unborn (or an facsimile thereof).  This would cover the balanced part really easily (because Unborn are really well designed).  I guess I could justify it as enough damage to destory the host body destroys the support infrastructure that keeps the pilot entity alive and kills him.  Maybe give them a unique cheat death option, but pretty much just call it a day at "Unborn".  I'm not a huge fan of this because it completely kills the ability of the pilot device to swap bodies, something important to the concept.

2) New Origin Go!  Hard (as F$#k!) to balance - it would have to incorporate all the limitations and advantages of the concept.  More faithful to the concept (a big advantage IMO).  So my thinking is make it tiny, immobile and forced to "ride" a companion NPC that it gets as part of the origin.  So something like this:

Brain in a Jar.
[?.?] Type: Tiny Immobile ?? (Beast? Construct?)  You always have exactly X Wounds.
[?.?] Attributes: Half normal points, only purchase mental attributes (Random idea here.  But who wouldn't ignore physical attributes entirely with this "species"?)
[3.0] Cyborg Body: You gain Robot Homie as a bonus feat.  You must ride in your Robot Homie at all times, following all the normal rules for riden characters.  If your Robot Homie is replaced for any reason (swapped for a new model, destroyed or otherwise) you must be immediately transfered to your new Homie and ride in it.
Add rest of traits here...

Note: Robot Homie will be effectively a duplicate of Personal Lieutennant that runs off Gear feats rather then Style feats (same as Animal Partner - just with Constructs, not Animals).  It'll also have a better name I guess, but it's 3am so you get what you pay for (or something?).

3) Give up and turn to the Crafty Forum.  Because there's a bunch of really clever lads there.  Interestingly, this is the current stage I'm at.  So if anyone has any thoughts, ideas, or mechanics they'd like to share on how they'd bring this idea to the table - I'm very much all ears.  If bribery is your price, I'll totally do something good.  Yup - you heard it here, goodness is coming, which is a totally great deal IMO.  Plus if someone helps me with this I can move back to working on the Psion and Cyber rules, which would be nice...

So, would you kindly help a guy out and throw some mechanics at me?  Because this one has me kinda stumped (and I really don't wanna just run it as an Unborn - that'd work best for either full AI's in specifically built bodies or 'borgs who are "built in" to their housing).

[foproy]

reading that whole description all i could think of was this

http://images.wikia.com/tmnt/de/images/4/44/Krang_android.jpg
also i nust noticed that squidbillies early cuyler looks like krang.

also couldnt you use a feat with the unborn species?

[tfwfh]

I'm imagining a new brain in a jar species, preferably a construct, but I haven't gotten that far yet.  At character creation, you get a brain, and a jar (or robot homie) that it inhabits, and you assign your stats as normal.  You also get a possession ability, that lets you move the brain part to another host.  How that works is left intentionally unspecified, so it could be literal brains in jars, or ghostly possession, or whatever else.  When the brain possess another host, you use the brain's mental stats and the host's physical ones.  Whether this can be done with a currently inhabited host is again left up to the GM to suit the needs of the setting.  The Jar part works similar to PL or AC, where if it's lost or "killed" you lose a little reputation and get a replacement next adventure.  The brain is able to survive in a "dead" host (again, unspecified as to how), although it can't act, or do much of anything really.  Basically like being in a coma.  However, if the host is destroyed (-25 wounds), that also destroys the brain.

So, without having any stats yet, how does that sound?

[Big_Jim]

I worked up something similar back when I rewatched the old Buck Rodgers TVS and wondered how hard it would be to create a Species for Dr. Theopolis (AKA Twiki's necklace). Alas, I accidentally erased my work a few weeks ago. However, I remember a few things... such as I left them their physical attributes because of the way mounts work (Lower of defense, etc.). The -5 from Dex would make the character a huge liability; but I gave them Banned Actions: ANY PHYSICAL ACTIVITY. I'll check my hand written notes/possible file backups and see what I can contribute.

[Mister Andersen]

You could do worse than use the goa'uld talent on the wiki as a starting point.

Or transmechs

[Morgenstern]

You could do worse than use the goa'uld talent on the wiki as a starting point.

That was exactly what I was thinking when I read the first post too .

[Mister Andersen]

Ghostbox. Your mind has been excised from your meat and placed in a device that allows it to wear machines the way ordinary people wear clothes. This is useful, but not without considerable disadvantage.

     Type: Special. In your native state, you are considered a Tiny Construct with wounds are equal to your Charisma modifier, you automatically fail all Fortitude and Reflex saves, and possess the mook quality. You however must still eat, drink and sleep.
     Attributes: +2 any/-2 any. Additionally, you possess only mental attributes, and receive half the standard points with which to purchse them. Further, level based Attribute increases may only be applied to Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma.
     Speed: Special. In your native state, you are permanently paralyzed, in addition to being blinded and deafened.
     Damage Vulnerability: All electricity based attacks deal maximum damage before resistances and damage reduction are applied
     Ex Machina: You gain 40 xp + 5 xp per species feat you possess to build the form in which you reside using the NPC rules (see pg xx). Your Size is equal to that of the form, and you benefit from all its movement options and Speed values, as well as any damage reduction and resistances. Your Attack, Defense, Initiative, Saving Throw, and Vitality bonuses remain determined by your choice of class. However, the physical Abilities of the form are priced identically to the normal purchase process, including starting from a basevalue of 8. The form shares your construct and damage vulnerability qualities at no additional cost.
     Interface Error: Each time you roll an error, an opposing character may cause you to become slowed for a number of rounds equal to twice the number of action dice spent.
     Light Sleeper: Sleeping is not a terminal situation for you.

[Sletchman]

@ Mr Andersen: Somehow I managed to completely forget about the existence of the Goa'uld talent.  So yeah, bloody good place to start.  Could you supply some point breakdowns for that talent?  By the eyeball it looks like it would come in well under 7 points (due to it all being negatives), but I'm not sure what you charged for the Special Type, Speed or the Ex Machina ability.  I like the idea of coding it directly into the origin rather then run off a feat and the ride rules, I thought it might add too much complexity to the origin, but it seems to not be the case here.

@ Big Jim: I'd like to see what you've got, if you can find it - the more ideas the merrier, in my mind.  I was mostly hesitant about physical stats because all I can imagine is a character with 8/8/12/16/16/14 or something equally unbalanced (and since the "Mount" physicals are used for all physical skill check end up with all super high stats).

@tfwfh: I'm not totally keen on Possession, unless it's limited to an NPC with a "host" quality - but that's because I'm mostly looking at a physical thing being put into another physical thing for those.  I can see it working for literal ghosts, as well as AI's and Ghost in the Shell style "ghosts" though.  With the latter two I'd still require the NPC to have a host quality - representing that they have hardware capable of receiving the possessor (not a small read only hard drive for a simple VI servitor for example).  Other then that it sounds like we're totally on the samge page here.

@foproy: So I should add to the "Depending on your campaign" bit "Krang"? 

I'm also not sure how to put it into a feat (it was originally part of where I was going with thought 1, FWIW).  It'd have to be something like a feat that makes them tiny, immobile and host dependant - none of which are actually benefits, and all of which kinda remove most of the unborns advantages.  Since any character can ride in a construct (if "in game" it was designed to house them - I've played Iron Man as a Captain in FC already) I'm just not sure what to include in it.  Unless you mean to make the Robot Homie into part of the Species Feat?  Sorta like: Gain Robot Homie + [Something] // Lose: Mobility, Size?  Again, I can see problems with players just totally dumping their physicals because they're largely unnecessary.  I'm honestly not a fan of eliminating attributes in character creation, but all I can envisage is endless minmaxing of stats.

[Mister Andersen]

@ Mr Andersen: Somehow I managed to completely forget about the existence of the Goa'uld talent.  So yeah, bloody good place to start.  Could you supply some point breakdowns for that talent?  By the eyeball it looks like it would come in well under 7 points (due to it all being negatives), but I'm not sure what you charged for the Special Type, Speed or the Ex Machina ability.  I like the idea of coding it directly into the origin rather then run off a feat and the ride rules, I thought it might add too much complexity to the origin, but it seems to not be the case here.

     Type: Special. In your native state, you are considered a Tiny Construct with wounds are equal to your Charisma modifier, you automatically fail all Fortitude and Reflex saves, and possess the mook quality. You however must still eat, drink and sleep. [-1 + 8 points]
     Attributes: +2 any/-2 any. Additionally, you possess only mental attributes, and receive half the standard points with which to purchse them. Further, level based Attribute increases may only be applied to Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma. [1.5 points]
     Speed: Special. In your native state, you are permanently paralyzed, in addition to being blinded and deafened. [-2 + -1 points]
     Damage Vulnerability: All electricity based attacks deal an extra die of damage, and leave you sickened until your initiative count the following round. [-0.5 points]
     Ex Machina: You gain 40 xp + 5 xp per species feat you possess to build the form in which you reside using the NPC rules (see pg xx). Your Size is equal to that of the form, and you benefit from all its movement options and Speed values, as well as any damage reduction and resistances. Your Attack, Defense, Initiative, Saving Throw, and Vitality bonuses remain determined by your choice of class. However, the physical Abilities of the form are priced identically to the normal purchase process, including starting from a basevalue of 8. The form shares your construct and damage vulnerability qualities at no additional cost, and if lost or destroyed is replaced at the beginning of the following adventure at a Reputation cost equal to half your career level, rounded up. [3 points]
     Interface Error: Each time you roll an error, an opposing character may cause you to become slowed for a number of rounds equal to twice the number of action dice spent. [-1.5 points]
     Light Sleeper: Sleeping is not a terminal situation for you. [0.5 points]


Tweaked it a bit while checking the values.

If you wanted to make it a feat, strip out the attribute boost and throw in burden of ages and a GC-choice subplot requirement.

[Sletchman]

Cheers mate.  I would have personally costed some of those downsides a bit greater in magnitude*, but I can see why you did it how you did.

One thing that doesn't sit quite right with me is basing the form of Species feats - I know it fits more with the other parts of the system, but considering how few species feats any PC can actually get (and this one in particular) you're pretty much saying "40-50xp, at most".  Which is fine, but I think I'd be happier basing it on something else.  Gear feats?  Starting Action Dice x 5?  I think I like the former more then the latter because it requires investment, rather then just being a set scale.  Might have too much synergy with Favoured Gear: Sexy Robot Body though (which might not be even technically legal, though it does intrigue me).  Might have to convert/invent some more feats if I go with Gear though (which I might do anyways...).



_{* Used because I'm not sure if "higher" is the right word here, not because I'm a pretentious twat.  Well, not just because I'm a pretentious twat...}

[foproy]

base it off of gear feats, and make some gear feats just for the body too.

[Mister Andersen]

Using species feats was quite deliberate. By removing the NPC Initiative, Attack, Defence, Health, Resillience, Competence and Skills stats from the equation, you're actually effectively freeing up comparatively more construction XP for various qualities than a PL or AP would have, which is why I'm starting at 40 instead of 50.

Using species feats puts you on an equal footing with every other PC who has to expend their level based feet slots on improving themselves, and it's why I didn't make Ex Machina itself a feat.

[Sletchman]

Using species feats was quite deliberate. By removing the NPC Initiative, Attack, Defence, Health, Resillience, Competence and Skills stats from the equation, you're actually effectively freeing up comparatively more construction XP for various qualities than a PL or AP would have, which is why I'm starting at 40 instead of 50.

Using species feats puts you on an equal footing with every other PC who has to expend their level based feet slots on improving themselves, and it's why I didn't make Ex Machina itself a feat.

I absolutely figured the choice was deliberate (and the reasons too).

At the moment I'm considering dropping it further (to 20 to 30xp + 5x Gear perhaps), but I'll have to crunch the numbers (esp for certain potential combinations) once I've managed to sleep to see how it shakes out (the drop is for the same reasons you have, but also because it opens up more potential feat choices).  I also like the Gear feat stylistic match up - Favoured equipment (both weapons and other augmentations to your drone), additional prizes (access to advanced hardware upgrades) and even some of the Spycraft stuff (Safe House, Tool Shed, Clean and Polished, and plenty others) all fit the concept very nicely.  On the flip side, I can think of about 1 suitable Species feat (and even it is based on removing penalties for being sans-"jar" - external sensors and locomotion for the "brain").

I'm also going to be very strict on options - as in hand a player a set of ~3 factory defaults and then they can upgrade from there.  Because I think having preset "production models" could really aid in balancing something like this.

That said, I could definitely see species working with certain additional infrastructure support - like a Solo expert / master class that increases xp available (perhaps with a "counts as" ability, ala Captain) and the like.  NFI what would suit it beyond that (likely Core) ability.  Free prizes as a gamebreaker seems almost fitting, but does step on the Burglar a little.  Perhaps enhanced built in attacks?  Either way - something to think about as a possibility.

[Big_Jim]

Ok, here's a (kinda) recovered species listing for Dr. Theopolis from the 80's TV series: Buck Rodgers in the 25th Century. It doesn't really do what you want (Quadputers don't plug into a body; they're carried around by a PL), but maybe it can be useful somehow.

Quadputer
Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah.
Common Personality Traits: Quadputer personalities are as varied as humans. However, the personality traits that they exhibit are generally more extreme – those that are arrogant are overbearingly so, those that are sarcastic rarely sound sincere, and so on.
Common Physical Traits: A flattened disk-like geometric shape, electronic facial features that illuminate when speaking, Blah, blah...
Example Names: Dr. Theopolis, Any named member of the computer council, that jackass one in that one episode…
Splinter Race Feats: There are no know splinter races of Quadputers.
Type: Tiny Beast Construct with a Reach of 1 (see Fantasy Craft, page 227). Your maximum wounds equal to ½ your Constitution score.
•   Attributes: No modifiers
•   Base Speed: None. You are immobile.
•   Banned Actions: You have no limbs and can perform no physical action requiring movement on your own.
•   Banned Saves: You have no limbs and can perform no Reflex saves on your own.
•   Encouragement: Once per scene, you may speak to 1 of your teammates for 1 minute to grant them a +1 morale bonus with saving throws until the end of the current scene.
•   Enlightened Skill: Choose one skill from Chapter 2 of the Fantasy Craft rulebook. Your maximum rank in that skill increases to your Career Level + 5. Only the highest bonus from any enlightened ability may apply to each skill.
•   Free Hint: Once per session, you may request a free hint from the GM. If he refuses you gain 1 bonus action die.
•   If I Recall…: You gain a +5 bonus with Knowledge checks (see Fantasycraft, page 66).
•   Inquisitive Mind: You gain 2 additional interests.
•   Inscrutable: The error range of all Sense Motive checks targeting you increases by 2.
•   Limited Proficiencies: You begin with 2 fewer proficiencies (minimum 0).
•   Personal Lieutenant: You gain the Personal Lieutenant Feat.

[tfwfh]

Sletchman, did you know that you're a bad person?  Thanks to you this got stuck in my head, and now I just spent the last couple days working on it.
Here is the result so far.

The position I'm working from here is that I don't like using the ride rules and NPC "mounts" for this kind of thing because I don't like mixing PC and NPC stats.  I also don't like having NPC replacement bodies, for the same reason.  And I don't want to mess with the way stats are generated and assigned, because it already works, so why fix it?  Hopefully this is useful, or at least interesting to you.