Let's talk Brains in Jars.

[Sletchman]

@Big_Jim: Cool stuff man, not quite what I'm after but interesting ideas for an AI origin I was also considering for the same setting.

@tfwfh: It was both interesting and useful.  I'm a big fan of seeing different ways to achieve the same goal, especially since every GMs mind works differently.  It's a little confusing to be honest - it seems like you are rolling up a PC who is both a host and a puppeteer at the same time (which was why I went in the whole "make two distinct bodies" direction originally).  I agree with your position on NPC use - many things don't quite fit right (and I don't want to see characters that end up overpowered).  Improved Host is a bit underpowered too.

Also, yes, I'm well aware I'm a bad person. Lawful Evil for life!



My current thinking: Macro-Species!
_{Just thinking out loud here, mind - I like the work that everyone in this thread has done so this is just a random idea that came up:}
Brain in a Jar.
Type: Construct
Attributes: -2 Charisma
Ex Machina: Your consciousness exists in an artificial body, which can be quite varied in design.  Choose a model of body from below.  If the device that stores your consciousness is ever removed your Strength and Dexterity is reduced to zero and you can not interact with the world around you in any fashion.  During downtime, with GM approval, you can swith between artificial bodies which replaces your existing benefits with new ones.
Reviled: Almost everyone mistrusts what you are - a living weapon that could be turned on them at any time.

Ex Machina Options
Infiltrator:  Options for blending in with regular folks, CQB combat focus (if anything).
Heavy Combat:  High strength, durability, large size, DR.
etc..

The idea (obviously) isn't fleshed out, just wanted to see what people thought about it at a conceptual level.  In many ways it's like the unborn's custom construction, but on a slightly larger scale (I figure Ex Machina could be fairly in depth, and then species feats can enhance them in specific fashions).  Thoughts?

One random idea is that Ex Machina could become their Specialty (give them required specialties), but I'm not sure that sits quite right with me to be honest (I'm not a fan of forcing players hands unless I can't think of another option).  The only reason for this idea is that for the bodies to be substantial enough it'll need a whole wack of points - and Construct is pricey enough as it is.  Again, just thinking out loud here.

[tfwfh]

It's a little confusing to be honest - it seems like you are rolling up a PC who is both a host and a puppeteer at the same time (which was why I went in the whole "make two distinct bodies" direction originally).

That is pretty much it.  There were two problems I was trying to avoid by doing that.  First is that a Brain in a Jar needs a body when they're first starting out.  It only seems appropriate for the body to be provided in the same way the brain is.  Second is that if brains and bodies have different stats that are assigned separately, rampant min-maxing will be the result.  Of course you could fix that by having special rules for giving less points than normal, but it wouldn't be obvious what the point total should be (probably more than half, but how much more?), or how it would interact with campaign qualities that change the point total for buying attributes, or other systems of generating attributes, such as rolling for them.  It would also make it difficult to simply play an intellectual body hopper, who isn't trying to min-max.  So what I did instead was make the starting out character function basically like any other character, except that they have an ability that lets them move to a new body if one is available.  The ordinary way of getting a new body works in much the same way as getting a new contact, except without being an NPC with NPC stats.  Instead, the new body is generally a replicate (or clone even) of their starting body, unless it's modified through feats or reputation investment.

I like your Ex Machina method.  I think it works well if the Brain in a Jar is meant to be very rare, such that you wouldn't have extra bodies so much as alternate ones that are available somehow.  It's a nice counterpoint to what I was thinking, where it would be somewhere between uncommon and ubiquitous.  You're right that changing bodies via changing specialties doesn't work well.  Specialties are more what you do than what you are, and swapping into a new body shouldn't result in you no longer being a cleric or a shaman, for instance.  Really, I think it works as is, if you think of Biaj plus Machina being mechanically similar to Human plus Talent.

I also completely agree that Construct is super expensive.  I wouldn't mind if there was a more PC appropriate type that didn't have such insane immunities, and thus could cost less.  Something like:
Android.  The NPC is an artificially created intelligent being.  It is immune to poison and disease, and never becomes fatigued or sickened.  It is also (maybe) immune to sneak attack and subdual damage (or maybe takes half?).
And that could cost in the neighborhood of 5 build points.  You could keep the not dead til -25 wounds, or not.  I'm not sure it makes much of a difference, since it's still unconscious at 0.  Mostly it would just make it very difficult to 1 shot dead.

[Sletchman]

Oh good god.  A new type?  It's so simple and makes so much sense.  When you think of it many of the construct advantages don't really make a lot of sense (at least not for the cyberpunk setting I'm working on) - sneak attacks could easily target support systems, hydraulics and power conduits and stress damage makes perfect sense, as do many critical injuries.  I just assumed because it was constructed that construct was the go, I never actually considered just not using it.

And yeah, I share pretty much all your concerns wrt balance and min maxing.  I let my players go pretty wild, but I certainly don't want one character to make others irrelevant at all.  The more I think about it, the more I like the macro-origin approach just because of balance (using NPC rules you only really need to buy stats and qualities, so anything above 20xp could get pretty out of control, which isn't great - plus it's less I need to check out when the game starts and consider interactions with class abilities).

[tfwfh]

Oh good god.  A new type?  It's so simple and makes so much sense.

I have been there, and I'm glad I could help.