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Author Topic: Understanding the Assasin class  (Read 2007 times)
Nymaen
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« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2012, 04:49:53 PM »

So, why is the free attack against flat-footed opponents only limited to halve damage with fencing basics? Does that include any sneak attack damage you might get?
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Big_Jim
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« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2012, 04:58:40 PM »

Because your just kinda wappin' 'em with your fencing blade as a punishment for not paying enough attention to you, really. It's a free attack, so enjoy that you get it at all. You can apply tricks to it, so if you have the full fencing chain it can be an autokill if you want - halving the damage won't help an opponent who is less dexterous that you in that case.

Why wouldn't the half damage effect include applicable sneak attack damage?
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Nymaen
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« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2012, 05:24:14 PM »

I meant is the sneak attack damage halved?

Does attacked a sprawled character end the flat-footed on that character?

Why would I spend a 1/2 action to feint/trip to get a free attack that inflicts 1/2 damage when I could simply make 2 1/2 action attacks?
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Nymaen
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« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2012, 05:28:35 PM »

I am not trying to be argumentative. I do appreciate the help. I just know I am not understanding something..but I don't know what I am missing.
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Krensky
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« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2012, 05:45:20 PM »

It's sort of a gm call, but I would rule no since it's technically a different source and I don't recall a designer saying otherwise.

No. Well, technically yes, but they immediately become flat-footed again if they're still sprawled.

Because you want to hit them with sneak attack damage? Because they're defense is too good? Because you want to prevent them from having a full set of actions next turn? A fencer isn't so much about raw damage as they are about control. Work the line, free conversion to stress, total defense tricks. If you just want tons of damage, look at the sword chain.
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« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2012, 09:46:05 PM »

I GM'd a game with a friend who was playing a fencer.  It was hilarious.  The character never let any of the bad guys move without slapping them back in line.  And standard characters?  Fuhgetaboutit!  They just died.  Lots.

It does; however, require a different point of view from, "I am the sword master!"  That is more the sword chain as Krensky said.
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Nymaen
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« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2012, 10:11:55 PM »

Thanks very much for the help. I think I am starting to get this now. I will let you know how it goes.
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Bill Whitmore
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« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2012, 10:39:17 PM »

I meant is the sneak attack damage halved?

Does attacked a sprawled character end the flat-footed on that character?

Why would I spend a 1/2 action to feint/trip to get a free attack that inflicts 1/2 damage when I could simply make 2 1/2 action attacks?

First of all, if you do have Sneak Attack damage to add, you may do more damage even after it is cut in half when you attack someone who is flat-footed.

Second, you don't have to be the one to make the guy flat-footed to get the extra attack, you just have to be adjacent to him when he is flat-footed.  If someone else trips him, or if he fails any action and makes himself flat-footed you could get a free attack.  If you go first in a combat, you can run (full action) up to someone who is still flat-footed and get the free attack.

I am usually running the games, but the one game I play in I have a character with the full Fencing line.  I can tell you from my experience, the feat line is simply awesome for killing standard characters.  For special characters, not so much.

Now, the Assassin core ability specializes in killing Special Characters.  If you are looking for a feat chain to neutralize special characters quickly, the Fencing line is not the feat line you want.  If you want something that will help you get through the wall of guards that you have to face if you get caught, it may be right up your alley.

As has been discussed, if you are looking for a way to neutralize specials, consider the Sword B/M/S line.  Grab a Short Sword with the AP and Keen upgrades (Keen 8, AP 2) and use the Bury the Blade trick (Keen 10).  At Keen 18, any hit that causes at least 7 damage (and you get +3 if you are in Martial Stance) after DR forces them to make a save or take a critical injury.
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Nymaen
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« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2012, 08:53:07 PM »

Would you recommend the sword path over knife feats and ambush feats?

The assassin is simply very feat starved...
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Bill Whitmore
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« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2012, 10:02:52 PM »

Would you recommend the sword path over knife feats and ambush feats?

The assassin is simply very feat starved...

No.  For the Assassin that specializes in killing special targets, I would recommend the Sword feats over the Fencing feats; however, I'd likely take Knife Basics over Ambush Basics and both over Sword Basics (further reasoning below).

By their very nature, Special characters are hard to kill.  Special NPCs can have huge stacks of vitality, so bringing them down quickly requires bypassing that vitality as much as possible.  Far and away, the most reliable way to do that is with Terminal Situations, which may typically mean getting to your target while he is sleeping.  But, since Terminal Situations are always declared by the GM, you would need a cooperative GM.

Another way to bring them down quickly is with critical hits that do enough damage to remove their wounds.  This requires maximizing your threat range on your attacks which is one of the reasons I favor the Stiletto's 18-20 threat range.  With damage of 1d4 + Dex Mod + Sneak Attack + Action Die that practically ignores DR, you should be able to drop most targets with a single Sneak Attack critical hit.

Which brings me back to my feat preference listed earlier.  The quickest way to accumulate damage is with Sneak Attack dice.  If you operate under the assumption that your opponent isn't aware that you are about to strike, you should be able to enter the Wicked Dance Stance before attacking.  If you also have Ambush Basics, you now have 3 Sneak Attack Dice.  The next feat I would look at could well be Ferocity Basics, which adds +1 damage per sneak attack die.  Also, with Ferocity Basics, after you get a critical hit and drop the target, it's only a half action to do the Coup de Grace and make sure the deed is done.

After those 3, your main goal should be increasing your threat range on attacks.  The easiest way is Misdirection Basics, which adds 1 to the threat range against Special characters.

Looking at the Origins, I am actually liking the Vanguard, which gives you Misdirection Basics.  Pairing Impress with Resolve and Charming could both be really handy to infiltrate an area.  The other 3 feats can be obtained at levels 1, 3, and 6.

If there is any chance that you will be fighting with allies, I would probably usually use the Assassin's bonus melee feat to add Darting Weapon.  Once you are in a flank, your goal is to roll a threat more than inflict raw damage and more attacks makes that more likely.

As far as proficiencies, you definitely want Edged (forte) to use the Stiletto.  A few tricks which could be helpful: Exploit Vulnerability (AC), Salt the Wound (after adding the bleed upgrade to your Stiletto) and Venom Master (if you want to poison the target).

To recap, 4 feats: Knife Basics, Ambush Basics, Ferocity Basics, Misdirection Basics

Superior Stiletto with the following upgrades: AP, Bleed, Keen

Assuming a +3 Dex and a flat-footed opponent, at level 6, you would have a 17-20 threat range that does 20 damage on average and you could add an action die if you needed more (1d4 + 3d6 (Sneak Attack) + 7 (Superior, Ferocity Basics & Dex Mod)).  If he survives, he'd have to roll a fort to avoid bleeding and if he starts bleeding, you can Salt the Wound on future attacks for an additional 1d6 damage.  If you caught the guy unarmored you may even be able to add Keen 14 to the attack with Exploit Vulnerability and force a save vs critical injury.
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Nymaen
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« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2012, 01:27:01 PM »

I apparently did not understand how keen works until this explanation.

Thanks to all for the ideas!
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Nymaen
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« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2012, 01:32:09 PM »

One more question, since this will come up soon.

At level 3, the assassin can make an ambush check as a free action. How does this work? can you do this in the middle of combat too?
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Blankbeard
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« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2012, 02:53:51 PM »

One more question, since this will come up soon.

At level 3, the assassin can make an ambush check as a free action. How does this work? can you do this in the middle of combat too?

It's tactics versus notice(search,sense motive) with the assassin getting a surprise round should he win.  I see no reason that you couldn't do this in combat (ref: A-Team).  Note that enemies with Always Ready might be able to act in the surprise round.
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Sletchman
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« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2012, 02:55:52 PM »

I let it work mid combat (actually I let it work at any time at all).  The non-mechanical parts are up to the player and GM though - it could be a complex feint that gives the assassin an opening, a work of misdirection, or even a simple tactically placed beverage.  The end mechanical result is the same thing - you gain the benefits of an ambush because of your skill.

I'm also a fan of using multiple ambushes to defeat a superior force though (ambush, engage, withdraw, repeat) - the Assassin makes this really easy to pull of quickly (as well as midway through foot chases, and other sequences with a high level of mobility).
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Krensky
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« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2012, 04:51:04 PM »

Yeah, break contact or otherwise convince me you can make an ambush check and there you go.

Oh, it also means if you win initiative you can get the drop on the other side. Counter ambushes are fun.
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We can lick gravity, but sometimes the paperwork is overwhelming. - Werner von Braun
Right now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.
There's no upside in screwing with things you can't explain. - Captain Roy Montgomery
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