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Author Topic: Sletch pontificates on gun combat in SC3  (Read 11268 times)
Sletchman
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« Reply #225 on: July 08, 2012, 03:00:43 PM »

Sidebar / end of chapter section that has examples - think the end of the Magic Items chapter in FC.

I can guarantee that order wouldn't work. Whatever we do, actual end user guns for the folks who don't want to play with more than the lightest possible mods need to be front, center, and most likely the most prominent thing in the section. It's just the nature of the beast.

Honestly, I'd be inclined to leave the real world weapons out entirely in that case.  The folks who don't want more then the simple/quick stuff probably won't care if they have a "9mm Pistol" or a Beretta 92R.  The gunbunnies know that taking that 9mm Pistol and applying the Full Auto Modification gives them a Glock 18.  Everyone wins, and no one is unnecessarily confused.

Take my Shotguns example (I have finished more weapon types, but my laptop's built in wireless is being a [REDACTED]) - will 90% of the gaming public care if a 12 Gauge Pump-Action is a Remington 870 or a Browning BPS Stalker?  I don't - they're almost identical in game, and I go for the former because of Dependable every single time.

I think it's the same across other weapon types - does it necessarily matter (beyond RP) if you have a Glock 17 or a H&K USP?  They both have identical stats, and the real life has differences are too small for the game to worry about (being simply not that simulationist).  The gunbunnies who want to RP a particular guy (Bond's initial fondness for his Beretta 418, or the Aussie Army guy who wants to keep a Browning High Power) can easily put it together - everyone else grabs a Holdout or a 9mm/.40S&W and goes about their business.

You could use Gear and Gadgets to put an example of "the system in action" - should you feel you to have it anywhere.  Along with the fringe calibers, of course.

That said, you know your product and customer base far better then I do, so I might be entirely wrong.

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For what it's also worth I'm going to be playtesting this system somewhat soon - I'm running a WW2 Fantasy Craft game, so firearms will be more front and center then they are in classic FC.  So should  be able to give some decent feedback (especially since there will be some newer players, who aren't gunbunnies).

Awesome. Let us know how that turns out.

Will do.
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Viperion
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« Reply #226 on: July 08, 2012, 03:43:34 PM »

Honestly, I'd be inclined to leave the real world weapons out entirely in that case.  The folks who don't want more then the simple/quick stuff probably won't care if they have a "9mm Pistol" or a Beretta 92R.  The gunbunnies know that taking that 9mm Pistol and applying the Full Auto Modification gives them a Glock 18.  Everyone wins, and no one is unnecessarily confused.
I can see MilitiaJim and Mister Andersen turning over in their graves and they're not even dead yet Wink

I'm intrigued by this idea. I think it has definite merit, but maybe, just maybe (and I'm honestly not sure) this would result in too much of a divorce from reality. If everyone's carrying "5.56 Assault Rifles" it feels a lot different to "everyone is issued a Steyr AUG"...

Having said that the gamer in me likes the idea - it's something a few other games I've played have done. "Here's the weapon stats, you decide what it is." I think this idea is definitely workable - maybe with one of the (in)famous sidebars entitled "Where's the Glock?" where you could spell out for those who don't get it that your 9mm Handgun is a Glock 17, or a Sig-220, or whatever you want it ito be.

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MilitiaJim
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« Reply #227 on: July 08, 2012, 04:12:12 PM »

Honestly, I'd be inclined to leave the real world weapons out entirely in that case.  The folks who don't want more then the simple/quick stuff probably won't care if they have a "9mm Pistol" or a Beretta 92R.  The gunbunnies know that taking that 9mm Pistol and applying the Full Auto Modification gives them a Glock 18.  Everyone wins, and no one is unnecessarily confused.
I can see MilitiaJim and Mister Andersen turning over in their graves and they're not even dead yet Wink
There just isn't much reason not to give all 9mm pistols one stat line and elsewhere in the chapter have a small block listing the specific models for that stat line.  (I suppose I would care if I thought the 9mm was a decent round, but that's a different argument; the sort of argument that is rightfully banned from bars...)

The "build-a-gun" doesn't start being too necessary until one starts going crazy, like building a C-96 Mauser in .45ACP with a magazine well that can take M-1928 Thompson 30 round magazines.  (Building a Kalashnikove pattern .50 Beowulf isn't too crazy, any custom shop can do that.)
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« Reply #228 on: July 08, 2012, 04:56:07 PM »

I can guarantee that order wouldn't work. Whatever we do, actual end user guns for the folks who don't want to play with more than the lightest possible mods need to be front, center, and most likely the most prominent thing in the section. It's just the nature of the beast.

Any version of what you're describing here - if we were to do it - would necessarily have to be a) optional, and b) after everything that isn't. Also couldn't be a sidebar, for the very same reasons.
I just read this again and got what you were saying Smiley

Which is, if I'm reading it right - there are folks (a lot of folks) who have absolutely no interest in building their 9mm Auto-fire pistol with Extended Mags and just want to pick up a Glock 18. What you're saying above is that there absolutely 100% needs to be a table/tables which have <X> specific gun in it?


If that's the case, maybe this system we're talking about here may not be the best choice for Spycraft 3.0, if most people wouldn't be interested in using it.

Hmmm.
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Sletchman
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« Reply #229 on: July 08, 2012, 05:06:18 PM »

The "build-a-gun" doesn't start being too necessary until one starts going crazy, like building a C-96 Mauser in .45ACP with a magazine well that can take M-1928 Thompson 30 round magazines.

The thing is, I don't see why that wouldn't work.  It'd be pretty front heavy, making it a little awkward to fire, but I'm fairly confident that I could build it if I had a machine shop at my disposal.  And that's why I like the idea of not having preset weapons - future proofing.  Plus from a purely mechanics perspective, how does it differ from any other .45ACP with a 30 round extended mag?

One of the downsides of Spycraft's huge equipment list is the rate at which a lot of it went "out of date" - I had players ask "What would the stats for X be?" after seeing "X" on tv or in a videogame.  With a robust enough Modifications section you could build almost any new weapon that gets developed in the near future - right up until energy and electromag weapons.  Though an "Electromag" modification could work, too...
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« Reply #230 on: July 08, 2012, 08:14:21 PM »

If I recall, when Pat asked a while back about people's preferred weapons, damage and capacity were big scorers (some people preferring more rounds with lower individual damage, and conversely, fewer more potent rounds, while some went straight to a high capacity .45), while others were more interested in additional qualities or size or cost or even appearance because such things suited their concept of character over metagaming concerns (Bond's Walther, for example).

There's no point in having a modular mechanic if it can't easily be used to model popular types of firearms as well as generic. 2.0 for example has a sidebar that builds off the generic Martial Arts feat to give mechanical builds to represent specific types of martial arts for those bothered by such things.

A system that can lead to wildly bespoke firearms is fine for me -- because, hell, just look at the intersection of real world espionage/covert action and weapon design to see that sort of stuff in play -- as long as it caters to the majority of both generic and simulationist needs. Something at about the level of 2.0s handling of vehicles (hawg/racing/dirt/touring bikes, muscle/sports/vintage/large sedan/etc cars, warbird/next generation/fighter/etc planes, and so on
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« Reply #231 on: July 08, 2012, 09:08:41 PM »

I totally agree.

Using a modular system has the advantage that you can call your high-cap .45 anything you like, whether it's a M1911A1, or a  S&W 99 or something else.

The more we talk about this the more I think a page of "example/iconic" builds would be a definite plus - for example a Walther PPK would be .32ACP + Pistol + Compact (bonus to concealibility, subtracts from magazine size)

You're always gonna have the guy who wants his DEagle (.50, Pistol, Rugged) and the guy who wants his Steyr TMP (9mm, Pistol, Auto Fire, Extended Mag), and so on. But you will (IMO) also get the guy who wants "a sidearm" (9mm, Pistol). Which the GM could define as a Browning High Power, Glock 17, SIG Sauer 220, or simply leave it as "a pistol"
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MilitiaJim
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« Reply #232 on: July 08, 2012, 09:18:37 PM »

The "build-a-gun" doesn't start being too necessary until one starts going crazy, like building a C-96 Mauser in .45ACP with a magazine well that can take M-1928 Thompson 30 round magazines.
The thing is, I don't see why that wouldn't work.  It'd be pretty front heavy, making it a little awkward to fire, but I'm fairly confident that I could build it if I had a machine shop at my disposal.  And that's why I like the idea of not having preset weapons - future proofing.  Plus from a purely mechanics perspective, how does it differ from any other .45ACP with a 30 round extended mag?
I think it would be a bit of a pain to hold on a target, but the extra mass would reduce the felt recoil.  I would love to have a nice CNC milling machine to build some and check.

Also worth mentioning is that "9mm sidearm" will vary depending on where you are, and what your cover story is.
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« Reply #233 on: July 08, 2012, 09:33:53 PM »

Also worth mentioning is that "9mm sidearm" will vary depending on where you are, and what your cover story is.
Yes, but as long as it's stats are the same, it will cost the same amount of cash/gear picks/marshmellows, and you can call it anything you want. "This mission is in Australia. You have Browing Hi-Powers. Next mission is in South LA. You have Glock 17's".

Random tangential thought: Should magazine size - at least, the default one - be determined by Cartridge (so tempting to use Calibre there)? I think this works for most things... except the uber-ubiquitous 9mm, which can be as low as 9 rounds/mag and as high as 17* before getting into the "your mag sticks out the end of your grip"

*or so. I may be out here.
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #234 on: July 08, 2012, 10:34:33 PM »

Which is why I posited Reduced/Expanded Capacity as a modification made to the gun frame as opposed to Shortened/Extended mag as a mod to a separate piece of gear.

Because stuff like that does have legal ramifications if you're caught with (or without) it by the local authorities, which is an important consideration for a mechanic in an espionage game
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Sletchman
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« Reply #235 on: July 09, 2012, 02:55:20 AM »

A slightly different thing for a moment:
Guns with Massive.  Yay or nay?

I just put Takedown on weapons that have it in Spycraft, but while thinking about high caliber rounds that possess both Takedown and high recoil I started to wonder if Massive might be a good call?  12 Gauge shotguns have Takedown and Recoil 25 (SC) - should it just require 15 strength (and get the built into takedown via Massive)?  What about high caliber sniper rifles?  A .50AE?


Secondary thought:  Damage types in SC3/10kB probably shouldn't include automatic references to the blast rules (Flash, Bang, Sonic, etc.) - it just makes things confusing for new players.  I just had someone ask me why Piledriver (Wrestling Supremacy) is able to blind the attacker and other nearby characters (due to the tapering and blast section reference).  It's not a big problem, but leaving those references exclusively in the Blast quality makes it easier to understand.
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Crafty_Pat
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« Reply #236 on: July 09, 2012, 07:13:56 AM »

Secondary thought:  Damage types in SC3/10kB probably shouldn't include automatic references to the blast rules (Flash, Bang, Sonic, etc.) - it just makes things confusing for new players.  I just had someone ask me why Piledriver (Wrestling Supremacy) is able to blind the attacker and other nearby characters (due to the tapering and blast section reference).  It's not a big problem, but leaving those references exclusively in the Blast quality makes it easier to understand.

Not sure I understand - are you suggesting that no weapons use the blast rules, or something else?
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« Reply #237 on: July 09, 2012, 09:38:11 AM »

I think he's suggesting that Flash shouldn't be blast by default, but something like a flashbang would be marked "Flash (Blast)" or somesuch. As is, anything in FC that does Flash damage (or Bang, or Sonic) does so in a radius, even when it doesn't make sense (such as the piledriver example).
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« Reply #238 on: July 09, 2012, 10:23:27 AM »

I think he's suggesting that Flash shouldn't be blast by default, but something like a flashbang would be marked "Flash (Blast)" or somesuch. As is, anything in FC that does Flash damage (or Bang, or Sonic) does so in a radius, even when it doesn't make sense (such as the piledriver example).

Ah. This one's on the radar already. Thanks!
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« Reply #239 on: July 09, 2012, 11:00:40 AM »

A slightly different thing for a moment:
Guns with Massive.  Yay or nay?

Nay, Massive is mainly a melee weapon quality and not a replacement for Takedown.

Massive only knocks down smaller opponents.  When shooting a medium sized creature, Massive will never knock the target down, unless you put the gun in the hands of a giant or it removes the last of the target's health.
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