Sletch pontificates on gun combat in SC3

[MilitiaJim]

Or did I misinterpret what you meant?  It could also be more like Bows (damage from Arrow) except Rifle (damage from [CALIBER]) which would let you get AP / APDS / Subsonic etc in an ammo list.  I'm of two minds, both positive and negative, but I'm not 100% sure what you want it to look like, so I'd love to hear more.

I did not fully think it through when I suggested this, but I'm liking this idea here.  Damage from the Cartridge, range and such from the weapon, yes like FC bows.  Gun bunnies can build their perfect arm, and those who don't care can pick from a few sample weapons.  (Now I'm thinking that the firearm table will need to be landscape, for the ammo choices column.  Sorting by Cartridge wouldn't really help, then some pistols will show up several times, unless those are uncommon enough that the repeated listings are not a problem.)

Sidebar: We will call them Cartridges.  It accurate enough and cannot be confused with any other game term.

[tfwfh]

So like:
5.56 + SAW Body + Paratroper Modification = M249 Para
.45ACP + Handgun Body + Dependable = Colt 1911 / Sig P220
.45ACP + SMG Body + Drum Mags = M1921 Thompson SMG

Or did I misinterpret what you meant?  It could also be more like Bows (damage from Arrow) except Rifle (damage from [CALIBER]) which would let you get AP / APDS / Subsonic etc in an ammo list.  I'm of two minds, both positive and negative, but I'm not 100% sure what you want it to look like, so I'd love to hear more.

That is a fantastic idea.  Do both.  You could even take things one step further so that AP, Hollow Point, Subsonic, etc. are modifications that can be applied to the cartridges, rather than taking up space in the list.

And I wouldn't even worry about the compatible cartridges column, since the gun portion of the chart isn't going to be detailing individual models.  It's just going to have an entry for service pistol, backup pistol, service revolver, etc. that give range and weight and size/hands and ammo capacity and so on.  For the people who care, they know that they're using a Beretta 93R.  The people that don't care just know that they're using a 9mm cartridge + handgun body + burst upgrade.  There will of course be the possibility to create non-existent combinations (full-auto .50AE pocket pistol), but that's not the worst thing.  Again, the people who care will just disallow it at the table, and the people who don't will chuckle to themselves about their absurd guns.

[MilitiaJim]

I like this idea.  I would probably go with two charts, one for rimmed ammo (revolvers), and one for rimless ammo (magazine and belt fed weapons).  (Except wait, there is a guy who makes .357 Magnum 1911 pattern pistols, and the Desert Eagles fire Magnum rounds as well.)  Don't scratch it just yet, but it needs some more thought.  Come to think of it, with half moon clips you can use rimless rounds in revolvers.  Nevermind.  All we need on the Cartridge chart is to note if a round is rimmed or rimless, R for rimmed, and in the sidebar note that rimmed rounds are designed for revolvers, and a note about pointy nosed center fire ammo in tube magazine weapons.

There will of course be the possibility to create non-existent combinations (full-auto .50AE pocket pistol), but that's not the worst thing.

The easiest way to prevent that is, on the chart of Cartridges, put lines marking the smallest weapon that can use the round without being a gadget.  (Derringers are a special case, and probably special enough for their own little "construction block.)

[Sletchman]

This is an idea that I believe I can get behind.  It seems among the easiest to use of all the options (for non-gun enthusiasts), while also supporting more simulationist play and gunbunny players.  All while being fairly light on the page count.

[Crafty_Pat]

For my edification, let's see what this might look like. If you'll indulge me, please put together some entries as you think they should be printed. I'd like to see them in action.

[Sletchman]

For my edification, let's see what this might look like. If you'll indulge me, please put together some entries as you think they should be printed. I'd like to see them in action.

I'll put something together soon as I can.

This shouldn't stop others from doing the same though - different approaches and all that (plus combining two or three of our approaches might make something better then the sum of it's parts).

[MilitiaJim]

For my edification, let's see what this might look like. If you'll indulge me, please put together some entries as you think they should be printed. I'd like to see them in action.

I'll see what I can put together.

[Sletchman]

I've put together 3 shotguns, along with a selection of the shells I could find, up on my website (mostly because tables on the forum is... bothersome...) should anyone care to take a gander.  Feedback will adjust how I finalise rifles, which is the next step.  It's a little betaish, but hopefully conveys what I'm thinking here.

Obviously there's plenty of missing values (year of introduction for many of the ammo types, as well as costs), but it's a start, right?

Here's the page.

If I'm not on the right track I can easily start again, just had a spare half hour or so.  I'll be back in a couple hours hopefully to have a crack at some more kit.

EDIT:  Excuse the non-modern firearms upgrade...  It's from another project (didn't feel like creating another equipment page when I have an existing equipment page).

[Viperion]

I'll have a crack at it too.

MilitiaJim: I realise there are probably important IRL considerations for rimmed/rimless ammo, but for me (and I'm much more of a gun bunny than most of my roleplaying friends) that's just way to finickity for me and falls mainly in the "who cares/too much detail!" that 2nd edition fell into (sorry Pat  )

Will post up what I come up with in the next few hours

[tfwfh]

Here's a short illustrative sample that I tossed together.  I seem to be on essentially the same path that Sletchman is.  The main difference I see is that while I would determine the recoil based on the ammunition like he is, I would also have the gun modify that, with bigger heavier guns being less effected by recoil.

Quick gun chart to illustrate the idea.

Edit: I agree with Viperion about the rimmed vs rimless casings.  There's not enough to distinguish them from each other.  If it were up to me, I would include 5-8 recognizable cartridges from both groups and just not bother with the rimmed vs rimless distinction.  Then maybe include a sidebar that translates back and forth for the people who would be bothered by it (like, revolvers using .45 Long Colt should use the .45 ACP statistics, for example).

[Mister Andersen]

Not being a particular gun bunny but grabbing names from the popcultural phlostgen that should probably be on the list:

• Glock (a widely issued police sidearm)
• SOCOM M4 kit. Heck, I'd probably do all of SOCOM's usual suspects given that particular armory seems to be a perennial favourite place to visit for a lot of people
• Something like the Welrod or the Hushpuppy variant of the S&W Mk 39
• HK MP5 family
• Colt 1911 family, including something like Para Ordnance's high-capacity conversion kit, which seems an ideal test of a modular system like this
• Bullpup rifles like the SA-80 and the Steyr (and I've seen aftermarket bp kits for various Armalite and AK models too)

[Sletchman]

The main difference I see is that while I would determine the recoil based on the ammunition like he is, I would also have the gun modify that, with bigger heavier guns being less effected by recoil.

Actually, once I get to rifle cartridges (that can go into multiple weapon types) I'm going to have modifiers for various weapons in basically the way you mention.  I just did shotguns first because they're pretty damn simple.  Good stuff, too, btw.  One question: By easy / hard / very hard did you have a mechanic in mind?  Or just giving a relative comparison?

Edit: I agree with Viperion about the rimmed vs rimless casings.  There's not enough to distinguish them from each other.  If it were up to me, I would include 5-8 recognizable cartridges from both groups and just not bother with the rimmed vs rimless distinction.  Then maybe include a sidebar that translates back and forth for the people who would be bothered by it (like, revolvers using .45 Long Colt should use the .45 ACP statistics, for example).

Thirded.  (Or are we up to Fourthed now? Either way, agreed.)

@Mr A:  Agreed.  Though I think that it'd work best as a sidebar / examples section, as opposed to having individual statlines (think Magic Item's section in FC).  It definitely needs to totally have things like a premade "SOCOM Collection" along with the other common / heavily pimped (in videogames / films) weapons.  Once I do rifles (post-dinner, which is cooking) I'll see if my idea is robust enough that I can easily put together such a section as an example of what I mean.

[Viperion]

Very quick and very dirty, something like this:

Click ME!

Now it's been a looong time since I've played SC in any form, so those numbers are purely out of my nether regions, but hopefully they get the idea across


EDIT: Looking at that I realise that I'd need to add a WHOLE BUNCH of mods; so much so that the Mods section would be far and away longer than the other two sections; I'm not totally convinced that's a bad thing though.

The other thing that's completely missing from that list is how much these things "cost", mostly because I have no clue I'm not ashamed to say I don't understand the "3D" "15W" notation that tfwfh uses in his chart

[Moebius]

Very quick and very dirty, something like this:

Click ME!

Now it's been a looong time since I've played SC in any form, so those numbers are purely out of my nether regions, but hopefully they get the idea across


EDIT: Looking at that I realise that I'd need to add a WHOLE BUNCH of mods; so much so that the Mods section would be far and away longer than the other two sections; I'm not totally convinced that's a bad thing though.

The other thing that's completely missing from that list is how much these things "cost", mostly because I have no clue I'm not ashamed to say I don't understand the "3D" "15W" notation that tfwfh uses in his chart

As is I find it very clear. Nice work.

[Crafty_Pat]

Nice work everyone! As always I cannot guarantee that we'll wind up gong this way, but having the examples improves an already compelling argument.

Just to be sure I have the concept right, you're suggesting this + pre-built weapons lists using the same system? Just trying to figure out where "Glock 17" falls in all this, for example.