Sletch pontificates on gun combat in SC3

[MilitiaJim]

Tiers of proficiency could work.  I would break it down a bit differently:

Proficient, broad familiarity with a whole bunch of weapons. (Direct, Indirect, etc.)
Forte, very familiar with one sub-class, +1 to hit. (Swords, semi-auto rifles, pistols, etc.)
Specialized, expert with one weapon, +2 to hit & +1 to damage. (Longsword, M-1911, S&W model 29, pump shotgun, M-4/16, Mk 19, M2/3 Bradley turret.)
Tricks, squirrely/awesome/nasty things you can do with weapons you use at the Forte or Specialized level.
(I see no reason to require Forte in a group as a prerequisite for Specializing with one weapon, and doesn't, in my mind, stack.

Another option, especially for "super spies" is to default to everyone being proficient with everything, and use those proficiency slots for fortes & tricks.  Campaign Quality perhaps.

[Sletchman]

Posted in another thread earlier today, but it's kinda relevant so I'll repost it here.  Just something I was tossing around as a house rule earlier this week.

Proficient (Edged) = Standard
Forte (Sword) = +1 to Hit & Damage
Specialisation (Katana) = +1 Threat

Firearm Terms:
Proficient (Handgun) = Standard
Forte (Revolver) = +1 to Hit & Damage
Specialisation (Colt Single Action Army) = +1 Threat

Anything that requires a forte in the current system still does (tricks, feats etc).  Some advanced tricks could key of Specialisation (more powerful then base tricks due to the limit of a single weapon).  In a highly cinematic game you might allow "Arrow Cutting" to work on bullets for a Katana Specialist, as a random example.


EDIT: Crap.  Didn't see Jim's reply (totally missed the fact that there was an extra page).

[Mister Andersen]

God no.  Two tiers is all the complexity the system needs. Not to mention you're really steling the Soldier's thunder with the idea.

[MilitiaJim]

God no.  Two tiers is all the complexity the system needs. Not to mention you're really steling the Soldier's thunder with the idea.

The split tier of Forte and Specialization offers the opportunity for a non-combat character to have one piece they can use to jack up their foes.  (Yes, there are all kinds of non BAB actions to mess up NPCs, but that is really not the point.)

Gun bunny aside:  I don't think revolvers are different enough from other handguns to be a separate Forte, unless there are "too many" proficiencies.

[Sletchman]

Not to mention you're really steling the Soldier's thunder with the idea.

I completely fail to see how.

Especially since it's very clearly the opposite.

Soldier 1: Proficient: Edged, Blunt, Unarmed, Bow.  Forte: Sword.  Specialised: Longsword.
Keeper 1:  Proficient: Edged.  Forte: Sword.

Yes, it sure is a shame that the Keeper just stole his thunder by being able to use less weapons, and being worse at using their chosen weapon.  Whatever will that poor combat specialist do?

I don't think revolvers are different enough from other handguns to be a separate Forte, unless there are "too many" proficiencies.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  That was just a super quick example I cobbled together (since it was based on an idea I had for FC).

Devils advocate: I know guys who have put a few hundred rounds through various semi-automatic handguns, and are nowhere near as accurate with a borrowed revolver (which is the real life effect I was looking to replicate).  As well as competition shooters who can drive nails with a Glock, but not a S&W (that last example from Top Shot, I don't know any competition shooters personally).

[MilitiaJim]

Devils advocate: I know guys who have put a few hundred rounds through various semi-automatic handguns, and are nowhere near as accurate with a borrowed revolver (which is the real life effect I was looking to replicate).  As well as competition shooters who can drive nails with a Glock, but not a S&W (that last example from Top Shot, I don't know any competition shooters personally).

Those competition shooters would be an example of someone with a specialization in Glocks.  I'm pretty sure most of them have a forte in hanguns as well.

I don't think revolvers are different enough from other handguns to be a separate Forte, unless there are "too many" proficiencies.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

It also really depends how many Proficiencies and tricks there are, and how narrow Fortes and Specializations should be.

Or I'm merely Proficient with handguns, and lack a Forte in either "Service Semi-Autos" or "Revolvers" so the difference doesn't really matter to me. 

Spycraft 2.0 has 18 different tables of firearms.  Most should not be their own Forte.

It ends up depending heavily on how may groups of weapon proficiencies there are, and how many proficiencies PCs get.  If handguns, shotguns, rifles, and machine guns are all in a general "Direct Fire" proficiency, it makes sense to me to allow a PC to specialize in M-1911s, or S&W 29s without having a forte in handguns.

[Sletchman]

If handguns, shotguns, rifles, and machine guns are all in a general "Direct Fire" proficiency, it makes sense to me to allow a PC to specialize in M-1911s, or S&W 29s without having a forte in handguns.

Me, not so much.  I just feel that if you want to be a specialist in a weapon you should have rock solid marksmanship fundamentals with that class (Handgun forte and then Specialist in M1911).  I wouldn't be particularly troubled by it not being a requirement though.


Just a random idea I had: Variable forte benefits (based on which group it is).

Examples:
Forte (Revolver): Load faster.
Forte (GPMG): Auto/Supressive Fire benefit.
Forte (Machine Pistol): Decreased Recoil.
Forte (Shotgun): Increased damage.
Forte (Bolt Action/Semi Auto Rifle): Increased Accuracy.
Forte (Hammer):  Increased Keen (would need to remove that subdual can't cause critical injuries (which should be a rule anyway)).
Forte (Shield): Increased Guard.

Just thinking out loud (plus is more interesting then +1 to hit).  Doesn't have to be huge benefits - say Guard +1 for shields, or Keen +4 for hammers.  Could also link to qualities - Knives increase chance to inflict Bleed, or perhaps have all [X] gain [QUALITY] as the benefit.

Too much hassle?  Too much work (due to number of groups)?

[MilitiaJim]

Too much hassle?  Too much work (due to number of groups)?

Since the benefits are not something you have to calculate each round, I don't think the hassle is large.  Whether it fits into the designs of the Crafty Crew, I couldn't say.  (I'm in favor of keeping the +1 to attack go along with the other benefit of the Forte.)

Me, not so much.  I just feel that if you want to be a specialist in a weapon you should have rock solid marksmanship fundamentals with that class (Handgun forte and then Specialist in M1911).  I wouldn't be particularly troubled by it not being a requirement though.

Proficiency covers the fundamentals that apply to every weapon in that class.  Specialization is knowing the intricacies and "funny habits" of your weapon, like eating magazines or single shots with a full auto machine gun.  I think one can definitely learn that without becoming notably better with the other weapons in the bracket.  That said, YMMV, and requiring a Forte before a specialization is not unreasonable.

[Goodlun]

I guess my question is how proficient is proficient.  How much training is it suppose to represent?
I think the reference to Top Shot shows us if anything if you have basic shooting mechanics down it doesn't take long to translate the skills of one direct fire weapon to another.  At least where hitting a human sized target at one range increment  let alone the challenges that they take on.

[MilitiaJim]

I guess my question is how proficient is proficient.  How much training is it suppose to represent? ...

"Proficient" means, to me YMMV, that this character is not a menace to their friends.  He or she knows the steps for immediate action, and can take the weapon apart for cleaning and basic maintenance. 

How long does that take?  Less than 40 hours to make fundamentals of rifle marksmanship reflexes.  Once you have that base, another rifle can be taught in 15 minutes.  Machine guns take a bit longer, but not more than a couple of hours.

[Sletchman]

Weapons:  My current thoughts:

Category: Rifle (Assault Rifle)

Name	Damage	Threat	Accuracy	Range	Recoil	Ammo	Qualities	Mode	Size
5.56x45mm NATO	4d4	20	3	125ft x10	5	30M	Unreliable, Collapsable	S/B(3)/A(10)	S/2H

Explanation:
Category: It uses the Rifle proficiency, and is an Assault Rifle (for the purposes of tricks / feats etc - like how a Razor Sword is a "Fencing Weapon").
Accuracy: You gain this as a bonus to hit when making Aimed attacks.
Recoil: When using the burst or autofire action you inflict additional damage for each multiple of the above you hit by (Recoil 5 = Hit by 5: 1x Extra Damage // Hit by 10: 2x Extra Damage).
Ammo: Number of shots you can take before reloading (from full).  M=Magazine (1x Handle Item to reload), I = Individual rounds (1 handle item per 3 ammo to reload, can partial load).
Mode: Ways the weapon can be fired: S=Single Shot, B(X)=Burst fire, X shots per trigger pull (usually 3, sometimes 2 or 4), A(X)=Autofire, X volleys fired at max.

Autofire:  You fire any number of volleys (each consisting of 3 rounds) up to the weapons A(X) value.  Each volley fired gives you a +1 to hit.  You inflict additional damage for each multiple of the weapons recoil value you hit by.  Example: You fire 10 volleys from your 5.56mm AR (cook off the mag), you gain a +10 to hit your target and roll a 27 to hit (in total).  His defence is 14, so you inflict damage three times (beat by 13, not enough for a 4th damage).


Opinions very welcome (even if just to say "It's Shit").

[MilitiaJim]

Opinions very welcome (even if just to say "It's Shit").

Solid.  I'll have to think about Autofire, but the first impression is good.

My bigger, and gun bunny/less important, question:  What separates "assault rifles" from other rifles?  There is one small difference between an AR-15 and an M-16:  The semi automatic sear versus the select fire (burst/auto) sear.  I wouldn't break out "assault rifles" into their own category.  The three categories of non-tactical longarms are manual (lever, bolt, pump action), semi automatic (US legal AKs, ARs, semi-auto shotties), and select fire (M-16/4s, gov't AKs, SAWs).  [Miniguns are legal in the US, but those are tactical weapons.]

[Sletchman]

My bigger, and gun bunny/less important, question:  What separates "assault rifles" from other rifles?

Nothing.  It's just so people can easily find what they're after, not a proficiency seperation or anything.  The category would just contain things that the public considers "assault rifles" (mostly for ease for non-gunbunnies).  Clearly the name scheme needs to be tidied up (and I welcome suggestions) - just keep in mind it's also has to be broken down by feat type - so if there's a Shotgun B/M/S then "Shotguns" needs to be a table/subtable (like Swords under Edged) which makes seperating them under pump and select less optimal (though having Mode right in the stat line eliminates the need, in my mind).


Also, since it's somewhat related, after thinking on what you've been saying I think the best route is for a 3 tier specialisation approach is to have focus/forte as Rifle/Rifle and specialised as a specific rifle (to represent thousands of rounds through a single model - knowing the ins outs and quirks of that specific model).  The benefits can also be beefier - due to the focused nature of the benefits.  It can also be totally optinoal as a campaign quality, if people want to keep it simple (Forte: Rifle, end of story).

Something like: Weapon Specialists:  Players may chose to specialise in a specific weapon with which they are proficient.  If they do so, they gain one of the following benefits. [Insert List]

[MilitiaJim]

Something like: Weapon Specialists:  Players may chose to specialise in a specific weapon with which they are proficient.  If they do so, they gain one of the following benefits. [Insert List]

Minus 1 Error range
Plus 1 Threat range
-1 AD cost to activate Threat vs Standard NPCs
-1 AD cost to activate Threat vs Special NPCs
Non-standard firing mode.  (Bursts in a semi-auto, or strafing with a shotgun, for example.)

I could even see spending up to two proficiency slots to get a couple of these benefits.  (No spending five proficiencies for all these benefits.)

Edit:  Check out the Soldier's class ability Weapons Specialist.

[Sletchman]

Something like: Weapon Specialists:  Players may chose to specialise in a specific weapon with which they are proficient.  If they do so, they gain one of the following benefits. [Insert List]

Minus 1 Error range
Plus 1 Threat range
-1 AD cost to activate Threat vs Standard NPCs
-1 AD cost to activate Threat vs Special NPCs
Non-standard firing mode.  (Bursts in a semi-auto, or strafing with a shotgun, for example.)

I could even see spending up to two proficiency slots to get a couple of these benefits.  (No spending five proficiencies for all these benefits.

I like it.  You could also add +1 ammo loaded for individual load weapons (integral tube mag shotguns, etc).  The -1AD stuff might tread a little on the toes of the Soldier 6 ability though (so I'd be a bit cautious about it).