Sletch pontificates on gun combat in SC3

[tfwfh]

Out of curiosity, and assuming no iteration of long arms and short arms is workable, how would you folks break up modern weapon categories?

Depends on how many categories you want.  I'm not sure why long arm/sidearm isn't workable, but for the sake of argument I'll allow that it's not.  If you only want a few categories, then like this:
Handguns (pistols, revolvers, and small SMGs)
Rifles (assault, semi-, bolt action, and large SMGs, crossbows, possibly bows)
Shotguns (would rather include in rifles as longarms)
Heavy (LMGs, flamethrowers, grenade launchers, and shoulder fired rockets)
Mounted (HMGs, mortars, cannons, and vehicle weapons)
Thrown (includes grenades, also possibly bows)
Melee
Leave out explosives and handle them another way

If you want a bunch of categories, then like so:
Handguns (semi-auto only)
Rifles (bolt and semi)
Assault (automatic rifles, SMGs and machine pistols, and full auto shotguns)
Shotguns (semi, pump, break, etc)
Heavy (LMGs and HMGs, unguided rockets, grenade launchers)
Guided (anything that's guided, mostly rockets and laser/gps/camera guided artillery)
Flamethrowers
Tactical (mortars, unguided artillery, cannons)
Vehicle (any of the above mounted on a vehicle)
Bows and Crossbows
Explosives
Thrown (including grenades)
Melee

[Mister Andersen]

As a player, the fewer categories the beter so you can spend proficiencies picking up tricks and advanced actions

[Bill Whitmore]

As a player, the fewer categories the beter so you can spend proficiencies picking up tricks and advanced actions

I am guessing that having only a single proficiency called "Combat" would be way too few.

But I agree with tfwfh, that does beg the question:  How many proficiency categories would be an ideal amount?

Answering that question would make proficiency division decisions a lot easier to make.

[Tegyrius]

Magazines obviously are totally modular.

Get back to me after you fit a PMag into an F2000.  

Out of curiosity, and assuming no iteration of long arms and short arms is workable, how would you folks break up modern weapon categories?

As proficiency categories or as weapon roles/classifications?  My current design leaning is a very small number of small arms skills ("proficiencies," in d20 terms) but a larger number of classes of weapons.  And even those blur.  When the only difference between an M4 and a Colt 6920 is 1.5" of barrel length and full-auto capability, I have a hard time thinking of the 6920 as something other than an "assault rifle" for skill purposes, even though it doesn't fit the strict definition thereof.

- C.

[MilitiaJim]

Get back to me after you fit a PMag into an F2000.  

15 minutes with my Dremel and a pair of pliers.   

Out of curiosity, and assuming no iteration of long arms and short arms is workable, how would you folks break up modern weapon categories?

Sorry I missed this when I made my list.  I suppose if you don't want the long/short arms split then I would break everything down to Direct Fire, Indirect Fire, Machine Assisted, and Muscle Powered.

[Sletchman]

If only I could understand the SMG statlines, I'd be golden...

What is the question? 

The MP5k has a 4.5" barrel (and vertical foregrip).  The Glock 18 has a 4.49" barrel and no additional grips.  So why does the MP5K have 10ft less range increment?  Many of the SMGs, despite having longer barrels then (and using an additional hand for improved stability over) their pistol counterparts have the same (or worse) range increments.  I don't really understand the reason why.  Are SMGs just kinda garbage in reality?

FWIW, I think SMGs fall into two catagories:  Machine pistols and rifles.  I don't see the point in splitting them out as a proficiency group, and have been bitching about that for years.

I agree, and also agree about Shotguns.  I never noticed a difference between firing a shotgun and firing a rifle at the range, or while hunting (increased recoil was about it - though I did prefer the sights on the rifles).

FWIW, I think SMGs fall into two catagories:  Machine pistols and rifles.  I don't see the point in splitting them out as a proficiency group, and have been bitching about that for years.

Out of curiosity, and assuming no iteration of long arms and short arms is workable, how would you folks break up modern weapon categories?

I'm not sure what you mean by Short Arms and Long Arms not being workable.  So, this is how I'd do it, but it might be breaking that rule (the addition of Vehicle and modification of Siege might be enough to avoid the Short/Long breakpoint though?):

Handgun (Revolver, Pistol, Machine Pistol)
Rifle (Bolt Action, Assault Rifle, Shotguns, 2-Handed SMGs)
Siege (GPMG, Flamethrowers, Mortars, Grenade Launchers, etc)
Vehicular (anything that's part of a vehicle - Turrets, Cannon, etc)
Bows, Hurled, Edged, Blunt, Unarmed (per FC).

Note: Renamed Tactical as Siege to be more in keeping with Fantasy Craft, and because I like the sound of it.  Tactical is more "espionage-ey" though.  Incidently that's also how I ran my last GURPS game (just each of those cateogries being a skill, because that's how GURPS rolls).

[Goodlun]

I would break everything down to Direct Fire, Indirect Fire, Machine Assisted, and Muscle Powered.

I think this would be by far the best set of proficiencies for modern firearms I have seen.
 

[MilitiaJim]

I would break everything down to Direct Fire, Indirect Fire, Machine Assisted, and Muscle Powered.

I think this would be by far the best set of proficiencies for modern firearms I have seen.

That would be for everything you use to hurt someone.

[Tegyrius]

The MP5k has a 4.5" barrel (and vertical foregrip).  The Glock 18 has a 4.49" barrel and no additional grips.  So why does the MP5K have 10ft less range increment?  Many of the SMGs, despite having longer barrels then (and using an additional hand for improved stability over) their pistol counterparts have the same (or worse) range increments.  I don't really understand the reason why.  Are SMGs just kinda garbage in reality?

They're not garbage, but their garbage stats were established in First Edition and got carried over to Second Edition.  

IRL, I think they're becoming less desirable as compact assault rifles (e.g. H&K G36K, SIG 553, AKS-74U, 10.5" AR-platform carbines) become more reliable - and as a better body of knowledge emerges around terminal ballistics and overpenetration of assault rifle calibers versus pistol calibers.  Their advantages over those same compact assault rifles remain reduced recoil and reduced firing signature (which lends itself to suppression, though even that's fading as 5.56mm suppressor technology advances)... neither of which is particularly well-modeled in any modern d20 combat system.

- C.

[MilitiaJim]

The difference probably has something to do with muzzle velocity and how much energy the action absorbs.

[Krensky]

Although it doesn't apply to the MP5, open bolt versus closed bolt has a effect on accuracy too.

But Clayton is the privy to the dark arts of Crafty weapon design in this thread, I assume that the design rules don't account for that.

[MilitiaJim]

Isn't a MAC-10 less accurate than an MP5K?  I think there was a bit of accounting.

[Sletchman]

The difference probably has something to do with muzzle velocity and how much energy the action absorbs.

That was my first guess, but everything I could find gives them the same muzzle velocity.  I guess if it's a legacy thing, as Tegyrius mentioned, it makes a whole lot more sense.

[TheTSKoala]

With the MP5K vs. Glock 18.. I would guess that this was a game balance / design decision instead of real life comparable.  (Don't have my Books on my.. so feel free to interject.)  But I would guess the Rate of Fire / Fire Select options of the MP5K created a need to 'tone it down' when compared to Pistols.  

As for Tegyrius' point.  I agree.  SMGs are going to be overtaken by either Compact Rifles or PDWs.  The only thing currently dragging PDWs down is the fact that manufacturers are trying to re-invent the bullet, creating various special use, weapon system specific rounds.  (FN and HK specifically...)

[MilitiaJim]

In military service, submachine guns have generally been taken over by assault rifles, and we are not going to see battalions armed with SMGs again.  PDWs are renamed SMGs looking for a problem.