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Author Topic: Sletch pontificates on gun combat in SC3  (Read 11433 times)
Sletchman
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« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2012, 10:27:38 PM »

Additionally, but seperately, I also think for Autofire (and perhaps even burst) extra hits should be determined by Recoil.  You autofire something with zero kick (like a P90 for example) you can hit someone like a sewing machine.  You do the same thing with a shoulder fired 1919 and you might hit them with a round or 2.

Also a bonus for shooting multiple bursts, not a penalty.  You put 100 rounds down range and you will hit something.  That's also a small part of the reason my players autofired in GURPS - they put 10 rounds down and get a +3 which made it more worthwhile then Spycraft where you'd get a -4.
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Tegyrius
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« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2012, 06:41:28 AM »

Considering that you also want to get free attacks against people who enter the area after your turn has ended, yes I think it is more inappropriate than a strafe.  This isn't a full action's worth of shooting, it's a full round.  It's ongoing area control and you have to consider that the majority of what you're doing happens after what you would normally think of as being your turn or action.

Uh... yes.  That's why my first bullet was:

Quote from: Tegyrius
lasts until the shooter's next initiative count, unless interrupted

UGoIGo turn-based initiative systems really don't do a good job of modeling the synchronicity of combat actions, nor the nature of anything that takes more than a split-second to do... but they're one of the less-bad tools we have for the job.

I largely agree with Tegyrius's points.  I wouldn't make it a direct save vs attack - it'd be unpassable, which makes it pointless.  Just inflict the condition in that case.  I'd call it like 20-30 rounds per 5ft square for proper supression.  You want to supress large swathes of turf you gotta use some serious hardware - or have a team do it.

Yes, this.  Suppress a doorway with a subgun?  Sure.  Suppress a hallway? Maybe if you're firing down its long axis.  Suppress any reasonable amount of open ground?  Gonna need belt feed for that.

I'm fine with free attacks against anyone who enters the area supressed - just make it anyone.  Your friend is stupid enough to enter the area you're spraying with fire?  Too bad for them.  Same with people leaving cover - they're stupid enough to pop into the open and it's really more of an assisted suicide.

Full agreement.

I wouldn't grant free attacks against people already in the area - as you start opening up without aimed shots they scrabble for cover and such.

My intent with that aspect of it is that I don't like the idea of someone sitting still in the middle of a suppressed area for an entire round and not being at risk.  I see three separate ways to trigger the free attack: either you're there when the suppression starts, you move into the area while it's being suppressed, or you're in the area when the suppression ends.  I could key the free attacks off of 2+3, but that's more strain on the players to remember to invoke that effect a full turn (several minutes of eventful play time) after it was declared and initially resolved.

I could see scripting it as "you suffer the free attack if you remain in the suppressed area for your whole initiative count, or move into it at any point during your initiative count."  But my gut check is telling me that there are some holes in there I need to examine more closely.

- C.
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Clayton A. Oliver Writer of Fortune

And in this moment/I will not run, it is my place to stand
We few shall carry hope/Within our bloodied hands

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Tegyrius
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« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2012, 06:45:05 AM »

Alternately, make suppression mainly a non-attack effect, requiring a Resolve check to move into a suppressed area - or not use your first available action to move out of it.  But this would never fly because so few people bother to put points into Resolve.  And there should still be some hazard of actually, you know, getting hit by a bullet.

- C.
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Clayton A. Oliver Writer of Fortune

And in this moment/I will not run, it is my place to stand
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Sletchman
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« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2012, 09:50:06 AM »

I could see scripting it as "you suffer the free attack if you remain in the suppressed area for your whole initiative count, or move into it at any point during your initiative count."  But my gut check is telling me that there are some holes in there I need to examine more closely.

- C.


That was quite literally precisely what I was thinking.
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Tegyrius
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« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2012, 01:18:29 PM »

That was quite literally precisely what I was thinking.

Any suggestions on how to track persistent effects without using tokens?  One of my concerns here is that players and GMs will tend to lose track of a full-round effect after a few initiative counts, and stuff that gets forgotten is effectively wasted.  That's not very fair to the player whose character is providing the suppression.

- C.
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Clayton A. Oliver Writer of Fortune

And in this moment/I will not run, it is my place to stand
We few shall carry hope/Within our bloodied hands

- The Cruxshadows, Winter Born
Sletchman
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« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2012, 02:54:24 PM »

Oh - I was just referring to directly to the bit I quoted about free attacks.  I think that remaining in the area for a whole turn is a far better trigger for a free attack then at the start of the turn (I could see players trying to abuse this to turn supression into bulk free attacks otherwise).

In terms of tracking short term conditions it's a tougher one - I use a notebook and rarely (almost never) use proper battlegrids so tokens don't work for me at all really.  The difficulty in tracking it is why I would probably just use a "while supressed then X" type system - have it last while the target is both in the area supressed and the player continues supressing.


Also just a random thought - maybe shotguns should have a special rule (since each round is kinda like 8 rounds, at least as far as covering an area in supressive fire is concerned).  Perhaps just require / use less ammo.  You could build it right into the Spread quality - so it would also affect Flamethrowers and blunderbusses and such, but not slugs.
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TheTSKoala
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« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2012, 03:04:19 PM »


Also just a random thought - maybe shotguns should have a special rule (since each round is kinda like 8 rounds, at least as far as covering an area in supressive fire is concerned).  Perhaps just require / use less ammo.  You could build it right into the Spread quality - so it would also affect Flamethrowers and blunderbusses and such, but not slugs.

Maybe on Automatic Shotguns like the AA-12, but on a normal 12G?  Each round is like 8 rounds, if you're meaning fragmentation and spread, that are fired once.  Not really a sustained stream of lead.   
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Sletchman
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« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2012, 03:19:37 PM »


Also just a random thought - maybe shotguns should have a special rule (since each round is kinda like 8 rounds, at least as far as covering an area in supressive fire is concerned).  Perhaps just require / use less ammo.  You could build it right into the Spread quality - so it would also affect Flamethrowers and blunderbusses and such, but not slugs.

Maybe on Automatic Shotguns like the AA-12, but on a normal 12G?  Each round is like 8 rounds, if you're meaning fragmentation and spread, that are fired once.  Not really a sustained stream of lead.   

I meant in terms of making people want to stay down - you can really spread the lead around.  So to speak.
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TheTSKoala
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« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2012, 03:51:31 PM »


Also just a random thought - maybe shotguns should have a special rule (since each round is kinda like 8 rounds, at least as far as covering an area in supressive fire is concerned).  Perhaps just require / use less ammo.  You could build it right into the Spread quality - so it would also affect Flamethrowers and blunderbusses and such, but not slugs.

Maybe on Automatic Shotguns like the AA-12, but on a normal 12G?  Each round is like 8 rounds, if you're meaning fragmentation and spread, that are fired once.  Not really a sustained stream of lead.   

I meant in terms of making people want to stay down - you can really spread the lead around.  So to speak.

Now see.. going to go out on a limb here.. but I see the Semi-Auto 12G keeping people down more of a "Threat" action than I do suppression / covering fire.  When you put the Benelli M4 against an M2 Browning.. the Benelli M4 is using it's capability to rip your arm off to keep you down, where the Browning is literally dumping something along the lines of 15 rounds per second into your general area.
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Sletchman
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« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2012, 03:59:29 PM »

That makes a lot of sense.  Like I said - just a random idea that popped into my head.

Also: Orcish Benelli FTW?  Because I'm totally gonna be forced to run ShadowCraft (ShadowrunCraft?)...
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TheTSKoala
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« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2012, 04:06:00 PM »

That makes a lot of sense.  Like I said - just a random idea that popped into my head.

Also: Orcish Benelli FTW?  Because I'm totally gonna be forced to run ShadowCraft (ShadowrunCraft?)...

VowofShadowrunCraft?  What?  ...who said that?!
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MilitiaJim
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« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2012, 03:32:14 PM »

Now see.. going to go out on a limb here.. but I see the Semi-Auto 12G keeping people down more of a "Threat" action than I do suppression / covering fire.  When you put the Benelli M4 against an M2 Browning.. the Benelli M4 is using it's capability to rip your arm off to keep you down, where the Browning is literally dumping something along the lines of 15 rounds per second into your general area.
Might want to use an AK or AR instead of Ma Deuce, she is more threatening than a shotgun for many hundreds of yards.  Just sayin'.   Wink

That said, I can see pinning one opponent in place being a Threaten action that does not require much ammunition.  (In paintball, where get shot does not entail injury, one paintball hitting someone's cover every few seconds does convince them to keep their heads down.)
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« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2012, 04:13:03 PM »

One thing I'd like to see but can't figure out how to do smoothly and elegantly is covering enfilade and defilade fire.
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« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2012, 04:30:15 PM »

After consulting wikipedia on the matter, I have to ask.  What about the existing cover mechanics doesn't satisfy you in this regard?
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Tegyrius
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« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2012, 04:47:34 PM »

Might want to use an AK or AR instead of Ma Deuce, she is more threatening than a shotgun for many hundreds of yards.  Just sayin'.   Wink

.50 BMG: search and replace, "cover" to "concealment."

- C.
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Clayton A. Oliver Writer of Fortune

And in this moment/I will not run, it is my place to stand
We few shall carry hope/Within our bloodied hands

- The Cruxshadows, Winter Born
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